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Green Waste and Digging Deep

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Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:09 pm

There is a very interesting article in Digging deep regarding Green waste, with an accompanying photo of "typical contaminants detected from a field spread with green waste", one observation with the photo(which I cannot reproduce here) is that many of the items shown are not classified as contaminants by detectorists, and are in my view typical metal detecting finds, and are not indicative of green waste contamination. So if detectorists start reporting normal junk as green waste, it will significantly water down the value of information obtained by reporting incidents on the App. I also guess that as a matter of courtesy to the land owners and rally organisers that their agreement is sought before registering GPS locations, whilst there is no intention to identify land owners, once the information is recorded... its recorded, with potential unforeseen downstream consequences.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby jcmaloney » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:35 pm

Those items are typical non-degradable items that can be mixed in Contaminated Green Waste.
There have been reports of foil, batteries,needles, PCB`s etc etc.
Its more about volume than what the items are.
If you had a field with CGW on it that would be from a very small area.
CLEAN, compliant compost is fine..... non-degradable is bad. By default the non degradable will multiply with every application.

It is a very often complained about issue and it is the responsibility of organisation like the NCMD to act on behalf of its members. ::g
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:55 pm

I am not disputing the NCMD's responsibilities, ... just that at least 8 of the items are perfectly normal non-green waste items in my experience .. I dont need to list them as we can all see these.. its ironic that one of the items appears to be a coin.
My other concern is entering GPS coordinates for Green waste if one doesnt have consent of the landowner, we are after all no more than guests on their land.
edit: I have reread the article and note that not once are farmers mentioned, the article states that the archies are seeking to work with recycling industry, government, and green waste organisations to create tighter regulations. I would add that farmers and their lobby groups should also be directly engaged, by those seeking to get tighter regulations... otherwise its going to akin to fishing quotas ..., where it seems everyone and his/her dog was engaged, except the people who were going to be most affected... ie. the fishermen. Consultation and working with farmers is going to be critical for detectorists, especially if there are moves to identify contaminated fields on the web, I would not for a minute think that farmers operating within the law would be happy with this, if they have not given their informed consent.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby roamingrob » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:25 am

Interesting one . Just so we all know what the article in Digging deep is showing I have scanned the photo so those who do not get it or had it yet can see what OA is talking about ( Hope that's ok to do

Yes there is a coin also a flat button ? below the photo it say..
" Typical contaminants detected from a field spread with green waste"

As I understand it a field spread with green waist would be small bits of modern rubbish all over !
On my permissions there are parts of field near to a farm with rubbish but not that modern.. old dumping.Light bulb ends, tins from the 1940-60s and so on. Also some modern items from the farmers and public. Shot gun cartridges, pull tabs, foil, bottle tops etc But that's not green waist as I understand it as its not all over the field,just here and there.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby jcmaloney » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:59 pm

oldartefact wrote:I am not disputing the NCMD's responsibilities, ... just that at least 8 of the items are perfectly normal non-green waste items in my experience .. I dont need to list them as we can all see these.. its ironic that one of the items appears to be a coin.
My other concern is entering GPS coordinates for Green waste if one doesnt have consent of the landowner, we are after all no more than guests on their land.
edit: I have reread the article and note that not once are farmers mentioned, the article states that the archies are seeking to work with recycling industry, government, and green waste organisations to create tighter regulations. I would add that farmers and their lobby groups should also be directly engaged, by those seeking to get tighter regulations... otherwise its going to akin to fishing quotas ..., where it seems everyone and his/her dog was engaged, except the people who were going to be most affected... ie. the fishermen. Consultation and working with farmers is going to be critical for detectorists, especially if there are moves to identify contaminated fields on the web, I would not for a minute think that farmers operating within the law would be happy with this, if they have not given their informed consent.


Many farmers & their representative bodies are engaged with the process hence the following has already happened.
1.% of non-degradable waste in PAS100 approved compost has been reduced.
2.The use of mashed MDF as cattle bedding then for manuring has been stopped and such secondary wood products have to got to landfill due to toxins in the MDF.

The biggest problem many farmers have reported is not being able to see what is in the loads until AFTER it is spread or when its highlighted by detectorists.
That in turn encourages dubious producers of such waste to mislead Farmers that their compost is clean and, by the time the company has folded/caught fire or vanished its too late.
I would suggest you google "Vital Earth (Derby) to discover why farmers, the EA & this hobby need a reporting tool.
Of course most people would talk to the farmer...I`ve done it myself, but that isn`t always practical.
I also have better pictures that could have been used but such is the pressure of publication that isn`t always practical ::g
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:11 pm

roamingrob wrote:Interesting one . Just so we all know what the article in Digging deep is showing I have scanned the photo so those who do not get it or had it yet can see what OA is talking about ( Hope that's ok to do

Yes there is a coin also a flat button ? below the photo it say..
" Typical contaminants detected from a field spread with green waste"

As I understand it a field spread with green waist would be small bits of modern rubbish all over !
On my permissions there are parts of field near to a farm with rubbish but not that modern.. old dumping.Light bulb ends, tins from the 1940-60s and so on. Also some modern items from the farmers and public. Shot gun cartridges, pull tabs, foil, bottle tops etc But that's not green waist as I understand it as its not all over the field,just here and there.


Many thanks for going the extra mile there Rob ... now we can all see the problem of distinguishing between genuine green waste and genuine metal detecting finds. Quite why a bottle top, ancient buttons, pull tabs, coins etc etc etc etc etc etc would ever be confused with green waste passeth my understanding. Responsible reporting would ensure that a photo in a Green waste article would show only green waste and nothing but green waste. To confuse Green waste with historical artefacts does no one any good what so ever.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:30 pm

jcmaloney wrote:
oldartefact wrote:I am not disputing the NCMD's responsibilities, ... just that at least 8 of the items are perfectly normal non-green waste items in my experience .. I dont need to list them as we can all see these.. its ironic that one of the items appears to be a coin.
My other concern is entering GPS coordinates for Green waste if one doesnt have consent of the landowner, we are after all no more than guests on their land.
edit: I have reread the article and note that not once are farmers mentioned, the article states that the archies are seeking to work with recycling industry, government, and green waste organisations to create tighter regulations. I would add that farmers and their lobby groups should also be directly engaged, by those seeking to get tighter regulations... otherwise its going to akin to fishing quotas ..., where it seems everyone and his/her dog was engaged, except the people who were going to be most affected... ie. the fishermen. Consultation and working with farmers is going to be critical for detectorists, especially if there are moves to identify contaminated fields on the web, I would not for a minute think that farmers operating within the law would be happy with this, if they have not given their informed consent.


Many farmers & their representative bodies are engaged with the process hence the following has already happened.
1.% of non-degradable waste in PAS100 approved compost has been reduced.
2.The use of mashed MDF as cattle bedding then for manuring has been stopped and such secondary wood products have to got to landfill due to toxins in the MDF.

The biggest problem many farmers have reported is not being able to see what is in the loads until AFTER it is spread or when its highlighted by detectorists.
That in turn encourages dubious producers of such waste to mislead Farmers that their compost is clean and, by the time the company has folded/caught fire or vanished its too late.
I would suggest you google "Vital Earth (Derby) to discover why farmers, the EA & this hobby need a reporting tool.
Of course most people would talk to the farmer...I`ve done it myself, but that isn`t always practical.
I also have better pictures that could have been used but such is the pressure of publication that isn`t always practical ::g


Many thanks jcm ... today I was lucky enough to be in front of a group of individuals engaged in the farming community. I first explained the scenario to an elder farming statesman ... someone who is 80+ ... still active, and working in farming his entire life...
I asked what would farmers think if they knew detectorists were reporting green waste incidents via GPS ,,, without the farmers consent... He replied ... "THEY WILL HANG YOU" .... The second guy said exactly the same ... third and forth persons said "DONT DO IT"
I am just hoping the detecting community will see sense before they embark on a mission of "DOBBING UP" our most valuable supporters, without whom none of us would be here.
I am also very concerned that the APP may not be Data Protection Act compliant, meaning those using it may find themselves in breach of the act and open to possible criminal prosecution. Its that serious.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby alloverover » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:53 pm

oldartefact wrote:I asked what would farmers think if they knew detectorists were reporting green waste incidents via GPS ,,, without the farmers consent... He replied ... "THEY WILL HANG YOU" .... The second guy said exactly the same ... third and forth persons said "DONT DO IT"
I am just hoping the detecting community will see sense before they embark on a mission of "DOBBING UP" our most valuable supporters, without whom none of us would be here.
I am also very concerned that that APP may not be Data Protection Act compliant, meaning those using it may find themselves in breach of the act and open possible criminal prosecution. Its that serious.


Dob em in anonymously, its not just the right thing to do for detectorists its the right thing to do moraly and its easy to see the badly contamminated stuff, its glistens in the sunlight ( if your lucky enough to get any) and you can see the plastic all over the mounds,if you can see a lot of plastic, there will be a lot of metal in it.
Whatever happened to Keep Britain Tidy campaign, dosent it matter anymore if you plough the litter in,,,,,,,,my god, what is happening to our country :( ,':( ,':(
It could be a dog walker, a bird watcher or anybody reporting them, you do not have to give your name to the EA, obviously have a chat with the farmer first but the EA WILL act on a tip off on their incident hotline 0800 80 70 60, https://www.gov.uk/report-an-environmental-incident or for some of the stuff I have seen, Crimestoppers would be a better bet https://www.gov.uk/managing-your-waste-an-overview .
I KNOW they take this issue seriously ::g
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:00 pm

Believe me there is NOTHING ANONYMOUS about the App ... its not even anonymous if 30 something detectorists on a rally simultaneously grass-up their host , and grassing them up for acting within the law I might add. Ask yourself the question ... if you were a farmer, and you were generous enough to give out permissions to complete strangers ... would you be happy if they reported you ...? A straight YES or NO will do nicely thank-you. Frankly the App is big brother gone mad and represents the very worst levels of intrusion society is subjecting us all to.
Not having to give your name is in my book a total cowardly act!! If people feel strongly enough then stand up and be counted ..... Going on a farmers land as his/her guest and then anonymously doing the dirty on them, when they are going about their legitimate business ... is "not nice" ... and that is putting it very very very very mildly!!!! If a farmer threw me off his land for reporting him I would NOT BLAME HIM, infact I would consider it JUST DESERTS!!!
On one hand I would love to see the DIGGING DEEP article published in "FARMERS WEEKLY"... but then on the other maybe not ... As I would hate to see the detecting community barred from land... but then maybe DOBBING EM in makes us feel good???
Taking emotion out of the equation maybe it would be a good idea for Archi's to liaise with the farming community directly to find out which fields have been contaminated, rather than ask us to do their dirty work for them!!!
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby liamnolan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:06 pm

Landowners literally own the land and we appear as guests now and then but the land was there before us or the landowners and will be there after we have all become part of it :D
We ALL need to do what we can to keep the land in good shape and if some landowners cannot be bothered to check that their donated "Green Waste" is what it says on the label then it cannot come as a huge surprise when others do get concerned and spill the beans. By all means approach the landowner first, shows good manners but what if they cannot be bothered?
Lets take care of our planet and preserve something for the future, Liam OooO
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:08 pm

alloverover wrote:
oldartefact wrote:I asked what would farmers think if they knew detectorists were reporting green waste incidents via GPS ,,, without the farmers consent... He replied ... "THEY WILL HANG YOU" .... The second guy said exactly the same ... third and forth persons said "DONT DO IT"
I am just hoping the detecting community will see sense before they embark on a mission of "DOBBING UP" our most valuable supporters, without whom none of us would be here.
I am also very concerned that that APP may not be Data Protection Act compliant, meaning those using it may find themselves in breach of the act and open possible criminal prosecution. Its that serious.


Dob em in anonymously, its not just the right thing to do for detectorists its the right thing to do moraly and its easy to see the badly contamminated stuff, its glistens in the sunlight ( if your lucky enough to get any) and you can see the plastic all over the mounds,if you can see a lot of plastic, there will be a lot of metal in it.
Whatever happened to Keep Britain Tidy campaign, dosent it matter anymore if you plough the litter in,,,,,,,,my god, what is happening to our country :( ,':( ,':(
It could be a dog walker, a bird watcher or anybody reporting them, you do not have to give your name to the EA, obviously have a chat with the farmer first but the EA WILL act on a tip off on their incident hotline 0800 80 70 60, https://www.gov.uk/report-an-environmental-incident or for some of the stuff I have seen, Crimestoppers would be a better bet https://www.gov.uk/managing-your-waste-an-overview .
I KNOW they take this issue seriously ::g


Next time you buy a grow bag ... take a peek at the contents ... its contaminated with plastics ... and hey ho ... the tomatoes still grow.
Take the opened bag back to the garden center ... and hey ho ... they will tell you where to go.
I think that we all need to take a reality check, dont you?
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:13 pm

liamnolan wrote:Landowners literally own the land and we appear as guests now and then but the land was there before us or the landowners and will be there after we have all become part of it :D
We ALL need to do what we can to keep the land in good shape and if some landowners cannot be bothered to check that their donated "Green Waste" is what it says on the label then it cannot come as a huge surprise when others do get concerned and spill the beans. By all means approach the landowner first, shows good manners but what if they cannot be bothered?
Lets take care of our planet and preserve something for the future, Liam OooO


Totally 100% agree Liam ... but I draw the line at anonymously dobbing in a farmer for going about his/her legitimate business, via a potentially dodgy app, which may itself not be compliant with the law.
By all means use the app if you have the farmers consent, and if you are prepared to put your name to the report.
Quite why the Archi's are getting us to do the dirty work, both literally and metaphorically, alludes me.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:31 pm

One other major concern I have with the App is that it is wide open to abuse ... with the farmer being on the receiving end...
1. The smoke screeen - detectorists reporting clean fields as being contaminated, for their own ends.
2. The discontented - detectorists who have been refused permission trying to get their own back.
3. The inexperienced - detectorists reporting crash sites, and other innocent contaminations, as green waste.
4. The deluded - those trying to make out the problem is worse than it is ... by reporting every 4-hole button they come across!
I guess I could go on but my levels of deviousness just dont stretch that far. :)) :)) :))
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby liamnolan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:00 pm

Good points, I can imagine someone with a grudge making bad use of that app, hopefully that would be appreciated by those who receive the complaints, Liam OooO
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:15 pm

liamnolan wrote:Good points, I can imagine someone with a grudge making bad use of that app, hopefully that would be appreciated by those who receive the complaints, Liam OooO


Thanks Liam. but i am thinking that its going to be impossible to distinguish between a legitimate report and a malicious/fictitious report. .. Its Big Brother gone stark raving bonkers. I will definitely be contacting the authors of the report, and owners of the App to express my concerns.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby alloverover » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:16 am

oldartefact wrote:Believe me there is NOTHING ANONYMOUS about the App ... its not even anonymous if 30 something detectorists on a rally simultaneously grass-up their host , and grassing them up for acting within the law I might add. Ask yourself the question ... if you were a farmer, and you were generous enough to give out permissions to complete strangers ... would you be happy if they reported you ...? A straight YES or NO will do nicely thank-you. Frankly the App is big brother gone mad and represents the very worst levels of intrusion society is subjecting us all to.
Not having to give your name is in my book a total cowardly act!! If people feel strongly enough then stand up and be counted ..... Going on a farmers land as his/her guest and then anonymously doing the dirty on them, when they are going about their legitimate business ... is "not nice" ... and that is putting it very very very very mildly!!!! If a farmer threw me off his land for reporting him I would NOT BLAME HIM, infact I would consider it JUST DESERTS!!!
On one hand I would love to see the DIGGING DEEP article published in "FARMERS WEEKLY"... but then on the other maybe not ... As I would hate to see the detecting community barred from land... but then maybe DOBBING EM in makes us feel good???
Taking emotion out of the equation maybe it would be a good idea for Archi's to liaise with the farming community directly to find out which fields have been contaminated, rather than ask us to do their dirty work for them!!!


Ive not seen this app but,,,,

:-O " grass up their host" Have you a conection with illegal dumping gangs OA, heaven forbid people using the fields of England for ILLEGAL dumping should be "Grassed up",

"acting within the law" But,,,,this is the point mate, its not within the law to dump what should go into landfill on our countyside !

"Not having to give your name is in my book a total cowardly act!!"
Is that the case really, or is being able to give that information to the authorities withought giving your name enabeling people who would otherwise not have the ability/method to give that information without fear of reprisal or negative consequences (attacks), I personally know of some VERY brave people who have used confidential telephone lines to pass on information that would otherwise never of been known.


"going about their legitimate business" contaminated green waste and illegal waste disposal is certainly not legitimate,


"DOBBING EM in makes us feel good???"

No, it really dosent, but sometimes it is necessary, if you have ever encountered the large scale dumping of contaminated green waste, which from your comments you never have, you would realize this.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:19 pm

Alloverover

OA wrote ""Not having to give your name is in my book a total cowardly act!!"
Alloverover wrote "Is that the case really, or is being able to give that information to the authorities withought giving your name enabeling people who would otherwise not have the ability/method to give that information without fear of reprisal or negative consequences (attacks), I personally know of some VERY brave people who have used confidential telephone lines to pass on information that would otherwise never of been known."


Being invited to detect on someones land, then anonymously reporting them for spreading green waste. is wrong on PRACTICALLY every level...
1. Spreading greenwaste is legal ... we may not like it, but that is a fact.
2. It is a gross breach oi common decency and trust to report someone, when they have invited you as their guest. Its two-faced.
3. Logging details on some database, IS A BREACH OF THE DATA PROTECTION ACT... If you dont have the persons consent. It is a criminal act, with appropriate sentencing and fines.
4. Making an anonymous complaint about your farmer, when they are going about their legitimate business... is cowardly... I just cant see any other way to describe it.
5. The App is open to abuse as I have explained above, the reality is that inaccurate and malicious data, is worse than no data.

I would strongly suggest that detectorists go and ask their farmers up front if they have any objections to reporting green waste contamination on their land .... and I would advise that you should be prepared for a quick exit ... with your spade being shoved, where you really wouldnt want it to go.

I really really wouldnt like to see details of the App being explained "farmers weekly" ... As I can see very serious negative consequences for our hobby ... far worse than any amount of Green waste could ever deliver... so pressing the button on the app, is equivalent to pressing the self destruct button on your detector!!!
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:34 pm

Alloverover wrote
"No, it really dosent, but sometimes it is necessary, if you have ever encountered the large scale dumping of contaminated green waste, which from your comments you never have, you would realize this"

Of course I have been on rallies where there has been Green waste, its just sad that it wasnt spotted before the 40 something of us turned up, but that is detecting for you, and I dont have any gripes. Though in future Rally organisers must beware ... because there will be a flood of reports on the web... and it will be pretty obvious to the farmer who is to blame. No more rallies on that farm then ... nor his friends farm ... nor his friends friends farm .... If you want to dob your farmer... you are going to have consequences!!

And with 40 detectorists on a field ... I would wager that at least one (who finds only scrap), will draw the incorrect conclusion that the field is green waste contaminated ... just like you did about my detecting experiences!!!! <:-P <:-P <:-P =))
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby alloverover » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:55 pm

oldartefact wrote:Alloverover wrote
"No, it really dosent, but sometimes it is necessary, if you have ever encountered the large scale dumping of contaminated green waste, which from your comments you never have, you would realize this"

Of course I have been on rallies where there has been Green waste, its just sad that it wasnt spotted before the 40 something of us turned up, but that is detecting for you, and I dont have any gripes. Though in future Rally organisers must beware ... because there will be a flood of reports on the web... and it will be pretty obvious to the farmer who is to blame. No more rallies on that farm then ... nor his friends farm ... nor his friends friends farm .... If you want to dob your farmer... you are going to have consequences!!

And with 40 detectorists on a field ... I would wager that at least one (who finds only scrap), will draw the incorrect conclusion that the field is green waste contaminated ... just like you did about my detecting experiences!!!! <:-P <:-P <:-P =))


The last thing I will say on this post is there is a HUGE difference from a field with green waste on it to a field that has been repeatedly spread with CONTAMINATED green waste, just one spreading with very contaminated waste is enough, I have seen fields spread and after they look like a landfill site.
I have had the misfortune to visit many green waste facilities, the variation in end product is enormous and it is not unheard of for half treated materials to be shipped out and ploughed in, that is when you have real problems and half the time, the landowner dosent even know its happening.
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Re: Green Waste and Digging Deep

Postby oldartefact » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:53 pm

I totally 1000% agree with everything you have just said ... that said I also 1000% disagree with the proposed App... and i am left to conclude from the Digging deep article that we are either being encouraged to behave disgracefully... or those responsible for the App have Zero respect for the farmer, and our relationship with the farmer.
The death knell for our hobby would be for "Farming today" to get hold of the article and give it headline billing... we might as well all jack in the hobby now...
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