Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:08 pm

WVAM wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm
oldartefact wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:53 am

Under the current Act the reward is the market value, some may be happy to accept less, some may give their finds over for free... but Market value it is.
I'm not sure that's true. It certainly seems to be the way it's done but the act says (as I understand it) that it can be varied by the Secretary of State to the point where you can't make them pay. There is also provision for anyone else who had an interest in the land, not just the owner and finder. Not sure it makes a jot of difference to the discussion but Archies and Detectorists need to start from the same place.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/24/section/10
Starting in the same place is an excellent idea, though I suspect that there is a fair amount of jealousy getting in the way. It was apparent yesterday with one voice questioning why Archaeologists dont receive rewards... If only they could find something that would justify one (and that is with total respect to their profession). Then there is the issue of hoards and significant random finds, well it's detectorists who have the necessary equipment and numbers to find these, so without getting all emotional "we" are always going to be the glory boys. If I were an Archaeologist and every year my efforts were trumped by another eye watering find, found by yet another wellie clad "numptie" wand waver, I would be more than jealous... I would be furious. We can work in harmony with Archaeologists, but only if they let us. We'll take the top-soil, and let the academics do the sub-strata, and if we detect something juicy below the topsoil, we'll give the Archies a call so that they can take over.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by roamingrob » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:08 pm

I can see this one being debated for a while... So lets consider as the weekend approaches. We ALL clean are detectors and put them away for two years. So no finds being brought in to the FLO no treasure objects being found ? How many jobs would be at risk..? Not us we do it for many reasons
but all on a voluntary basis. How many of the 36 FLO job would go as they say on there site

"The Portable Antiquities Scheme's database holds records of archaeological finds discovered by members of the public. These are found while carrying out a wide range of activities including metal-detecting. Our first record was made in 1998, the half-million mark was reached in March 2010, and our millionth object, a Roman coin from the Seaton hoard, was recorded in September 2014."
How many archaeologists jobs would go as no one to point them at areas to look at ?
I myself do it for the love of the history and do a lot in my spare time to talk about the history of my area with interested groups and schools at no charge. Personally I feel if you are lucky to find an item that is of valuable and a museum want it, you should get something for your efforts and the land owner as it was on their land. Speaking of the land owner I have had nearly 40 permissions and most have asked how a payment would work if treasure is found !

As said the archaeologists get paid a wage to do the job They choose to do.

Well that's my take on it all..As for a leader John you my vote too, But understand why you would not want it, which is a shame. ::g
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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by jcmaloney » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:31 pm

You should have said hello! I was at the back with John Rigby, NCMD membership sec. ;)

So, just to clarify, The NCMD weren`t invited to speak at this years conference, unlike last years.
Its not always in line with the conference agenda and there is a limited time frame.

However we were there, at the back, taking notes.
The other body that purports to represent the hobby weren`t there to my knowledge.

I will be writing up something for Digging Deep which will focus on the forthcoming review of the Treasure Act and the importance of both the NCMD and its individual members having there say when it matters and when the powers that be are listening.

As someone who has been going to such conferences for several years it is interesting to see the likes of MH influencing the process and agenda`s, he understands that if he asks for something very "extreme" then he is likely to get something in the middle. EG: Propose "fixed rewards".....get "Market value minus conservation costs".

There is little need to change the Treasure Act, the oft quoted Crosby Garrett helmet, could have been saved for the nation if the NCMD (Particularly the late Trevor Austin) been listened too at the last review!!
https://www.ncmd.co.uk/wp-content/uploa ... helmet.pdf

Anyway......I will happily monitor ideas and take them forward as appropriate.

Mr OldArtefact........ the offer of a voluntary role still stands...... help make a difference ;)

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:11 pm

JCM ... well I hope that you will testify here that I stood our ground... I suggested a commercial approach to fund raising (it was a sort of a left hook... they didnt expect that) ... and then I put out the idea that we work as a co-operative... we do the top-soil they do the sub-strata ... (mild laughter was heard) ... and to cap it all ... it was only the detectorists who were anything like vocal... the Archi's were mostly silent... either through nerves or ignorance, they can take their pick!!!
I am already very very slightly involved in NCMD proceedings, and prefer to work at a low level, challenging those who represent us to stand up and be counted. I dont know about you ... but the attitudes of some of the learned Archi's was grim ... they treat us with disdain, while religiously following recovery and funding methods... of yesteryear.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:27 pm

roamingrob wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:08 pm
I can see this one being debated for a while... So lets consider as the weekend approaches. We ALL clean are detectors and put them away for two years. So no finds being brought in to the FLO no treasure objects being found ? How many jobs would be at risk..? Not us we do it for many reasons
but all on a voluntary basis. How many of the 36 FLO job would go as they say on there site

"The Portable Antiquities Scheme's database holds records of archaeological finds discovered by members of the public. These are found while carrying out a wide range of activities including metal-detecting. Our first record was made in 1998, the half-million mark was reached in March 2010, and our millionth object, a Roman coin from the Seaton hoard, was recorded in September 2014."
How many archaeologists jobs would go as no one to point them at areas to look at ?
I myself do it for the love of the history and do a lot in my spare time to talk about the history of my area with interested groups and schools at no charge. Personally I feel if you are lucky to find an item that is of valuable and a museum want it, you should get something for your efforts and the land owner as it was on their land. Speaking of the land owner I have had nearly 40 permissions and most have asked how a payment would work if treasure is found !

As said the archaeologists get paid a wage to do the job They choose to do.

Well that's my take on it all..As for a leader John you my vote too, But understand why you would not want it, which is a shame. ::g
You make a very good point Rob, we pay their wages, and they call the shots!! i have only been in the hobby for 5 years, and have seen stunning find, after stunning hoard... its a bit of an industry, we recover the stuff, and the museums pull in droves of interested, and willing, folk to learn about, and view, our recoveries. As i see it we are the life-blood of our nations history, and without our efforts, footfall at our most prestigious museums would be in a sorry state.. Arguably we pay "their" wages and "they" (not all) treat us with contempt..

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by littleboot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Hmm. All rather disturbing. Not least because many of us have seen this coming ....in the form of less-than-fair valuations for example.
The analogy given that archies don't get paid 50% of valuations of their finds so detectorists shouldn't is totally outrageous and illustrates how completely out-of-touch these people are.
The taxpayer pays them to dig their little holes in the ground....more often than not just missing the important clues if Time Team was anything to go by. (Remember all those schoolkids rounded up for Baldrick's final piece to camera extolling the virtue of a few cruddy bits of pottery and a fantasy picture painted by whatsisname. While the kids and villagers tried hard not to look bored and underwhelmed.) It is a glorified hobby in the eyes of most hardworking and hard pressed Taxpayers .I.E. Those people who have to work long hours doing deeply unfulfilling and repetitive stuff...or downright unpleasant things....or put themselves in the line of fire....etc etc.
It's all very well being an expert in ancient pond larvae or pollen grains but it isn't exactly necessary is it? They are, in my view, lucky to be paid at all given how many cuts have been made to truly Essential Services in recent times.
So it seems strange that given they are paid to do this they should use this guaranteed salary .. which is the reason they don't get half the value of the finds... as a reason to say detectorists (Whose taxes help pay Archie wages and who spend their own time and fund their own equipment) shouldn't either.

Lets not beat about the bush. The veneer has worn very thin. It is, and always has been, Us and Them. And by that I don't mean simply Archies and Detectorists. I mean the Ordinary person trying to do his thing and get fair reward and a self-styled Elite that constantly seeks to control and manage every aspect of our lives. Heaven Forbid that the Plebs should actually profit from history. After all, through most of that history the Plebs have had to be satisfied with a role that involved doing the drudgery, paying the Taxes..... and fighting the Wars of course.
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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by WVAM » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 pm

oldartefact wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:53 pm
WVAM wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm
oldartefact wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:53 am

Under the current Act the reward is the market value, some may be happy to accept less, some may give their finds over for free... but Market value it is.
I'm not sure that's true. It certainly seems to be the way it's done but the act says (as I understand it) that it can be varied by the Secretary of State to the point where you can't make them pay. There is also provision for anyone else who had an interest in the land, not just the owner and finder. Not sure it makes a jot of difference to the discussion but Archies and Detectorists need to start from the same place.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/24/section/10
These are the starting instructions for how a reward is arrived at " The
Committee was renamed the Treasure Valuation Committee in 1997 in
order to reflect more accurately its role. Its terms of reference are to
recommend to the Secretary of State valuations for the items brought
before it which correspond as closely as possible, taking account of all
relevant factors, to what may be paid for the object(s) in a sale on the open
market between a willing seller and a willing buyer" ... Which in a nutshell is the current market value.
Yes the amount the finder and landowner receive can be varied, but usually this would be due to some failure on the part of the finder/landowner (eg. failing to follow the treasure act requirements).
Now this is where it gets a little confusing. The complaint or worry appears to be that anyone finding treasure won't get the full value of that treasure. However, and there is always an 'however', nobody knows the market value of a rare or unique item until that item is placed on the open market. Any valuation by anyone is, at best, an educated guess.
So it follows that if the guess feels like a lot we are prepared to accept it. If we get less than that guess then it's not fair. But, the item could have been worth many times the educated guess but we are happy not knowing and, by default, not receiving the market value. Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:16 pm

WVAM wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 pm
oldartefact wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:53 pm
WVAM wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm


I'm not sure that's true. It certainly seems to be the way it's done but the act says (as I understand it) that it can be varied by the Secretary of State to the point where you can't make them pay. There is also provision for anyone else who had an interest in the land, not just the owner and finder. Not sure it makes a jot of difference to the discussion but Archies and Detectorists need to start from the same place.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/24/section/10
These are the starting instructions for how a reward is arrived at " The
Committee was renamed the Treasure Valuation Committee in 1997 in
order to reflect more accurately its role. Its terms of reference are to
recommend to the Secretary of State valuations for the items brought
before it which correspond as closely as possible, taking account of all
relevant factors, to what may be paid for the object(s) in a sale on the open
market between a willing seller and a willing buyer" ... Which in a nutshell is the current market value.
Yes the amount the finder and landowner receive can be varied, but usually this would be due to some failure on the part of the finder/landowner (eg. failing to follow the treasure act requirements).
Now this is where it gets a little confusing. The complaint or worry appears to be that anyone finding treasure won't get the full value of that treasure. However, and there is always an 'however', nobody knows the market value of a rare or unique item until that item is placed on the open market. Any valuation by anyone is, at best, an educated guess.
So it follows that if the guess feels like a lot we are prepared to accept it. If we get less than that guess then it's not fair. But, the item could have been worth many times the educated guess but we are happy not knowing and, by default, not receiving the market value. Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.
Yes I agree ... but there are many finders who believe that their own personal view of the value trumps that of the view of a bunch of experts... Apparently there are some finders who are ready to dispute the value of a bag of chips... no wonder the Archi's get frustrated beyond words!

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by f8met » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:23 pm

Then the only solution must be to auction every item of treasure to achieve a true market value. That means the finder and landowner gets the proper value for the item (just think back to the disappointed lead pig finder thinking something was worth £60k). Alternatively a millionare collector will always outbid a cash strapped museum meaning he can put it in a draw never to be seen publicly again and the finder and landowner can have a few more quid.
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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by tcawood » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:48 pm

Another way to do it would be for the valuation to be done as now and presented to Detectorist and Landowner as an offer.

If they are okay with the offer then all parties proceed as they would now and museum moves onto finding the funds.

If Detectorist and Landowner think it is too low they can refuse the offer and attempt a private sale, in the knowledge that there is a risk that the treasure is lost to the public.

If a private sale is sought then some fair payment could be made from the proceeds to cover any cleaning/restoration activity already undertaken... this would be waived if the original offer is accepted.

Just an idea.
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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by WVAM » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:28 am

If an Archie wants more/any money from the things they find they need to look at the contract they signed. That has nothing to do with detectorists unless they want our help.

If the Archies want to lower the returns for anyone with a vested interest in a find then that has everything to do with us and the future of reporting finds.

If the Archies want to lower the return because they don't like others getting more than them - well that's just avarice and jealousy and should be called out.

And if a museum can't find the money to buy an item of national importance then have low fixed rate government loans and repay via exhibition costs and footfall - there are many potential solutions.

I just think we need to be seen to take the emotion out of the arguments and lead the way.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by jcmaloney » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:31 am

WVAM wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:28 am
If an Archie wants more/any money from the things they find they need to look at the contract they signed. That has nothing to do with detectorists unless they want our help.

If the Archies want to lower the returns for anyone with a vested interest in a find then that has everything to do with us and the future of reporting finds.

If the Archies want to lower the return because they don't like others getting more than them - well that's just avarice and jealousy and should be called out.

And if a museum can't find the money to buy an item of national importance then have low fixed rate government loans and repay via exhibition costs and footfall - there are many potential solutions.

I just think we need to be seen to take the emotion out of the arguments and lead the way.
Well said indeed!!
Especially the last bit! ::g

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by jcmaloney » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:38 am

The best bit for me was the irrepressible Helen Geake who said that "If a room full of Museum curators say the valuations are too high & a room full of finders say they are too low.......then surely the valuations must be about right?"
The curator from Norwich was also very realistic about acquisition, disposal, display & storage all of which come at a cost so focus on things beyond the normal.

However the time it will really matter is when the review goes out to consultation which will be everyone's opportunity to say their part.
And that is where the NCMD & individuals really need to ignite some sort of campaign because the last review had the sum total of ONE public comment!!

Apathy <---- our detractors best friend and our own worst enemy.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by WVAM » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:25 am

JC,

thank you.
What's the plan to let everyone across the UK know when they have a chance, and how, to comment?
Cheers,

Chris

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:45 am

f8met wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:23 pm
Then the only solution must be to auction every item of treasure to achieve a true market value. That means the finder and landowner gets the proper value for the item (just think back to the disappointed lead pig finder thinking something was worth £60k). Alternatively a millionare collector will always outbid a cash strapped museum meaning he can put it in a draw never to be seen publicly again and the finder and landowner can have a few more quid.
Very sadly if they reduce the rewards, like some are suggesting, that is what may well happen, thus making a travesty of the act. Obviously we all want to save stuff for the nation, that is what the act is all about, but tinkering with the reward scheme is not the way to go. the powers that be need to drag their museums into the 21st century, they may display the past, but that doesn't mean they have to be stuck in it.
Last edited by oldartefact on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:50 am

jcmaloney wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:38 am
The best bit for me was the irrepressible Helen Geake who said that "If a room full of Museum curators say the valuations are too high & a room full of finders say they are too low.......then surely the valuations must be about right?"
The curator from Norwich was also very realistic about acquisition, disposal, display & storage all of which come at a cost so focus on things beyond the normal.

However the time it will really matter is when the review goes out to consultation which will be everyone's opportunity to say their part.
And that is where the NCMD & individuals really need to ignite some sort of campaign because the last review had the sum total of ONE public comment!!

Apathy <---- our detractors best friend and our own worst enemy.
When was the last review? ultimately the whole issue is to do with how the museums are funded ... they are benevolent philanthropic organisations ... my feeling is that there is a lack of commercial awareness and desire.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:53 am

WVAM wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:28 am
If an Archie wants more/any money from the things they find they need to look at the contract they signed. That has nothing to do with detectorists unless they want our help.

If the Archies want to lower the returns for anyone with a vested interest in a find then that has everything to do with us and the future of reporting finds.

If the Archies want to lower the return because they don't like others getting more than them - well that's just avarice and jealousy and should be called out.

And if a museum can't find the money to buy an item of national importance then have low fixed rate government loans and repay via exhibition costs and footfall - there are many potential solutions.

I just think we need to be seen to take the emotion out of the arguments and lead the way.
Totally agree WVAM ... I do feel sorry for the guys, but somehow think, as you imply, that they are lacking leadership and little bit of creative thinking.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:11 pm

Moving the debate sideways a little ... as one Archie said ... there is nothing wrong with stuff going into the Museums vaults never to be seen again ... they go there to contribute to the academic record... are in safe storage for the nation, and if conserved properly will be there to the end of time ... and there is nothing wrong with that. There simply isnt enough room to display all our finds and often its inappropriate, better that they remain safely in the museums archives. The question of what happens to private collections when one becomes deceased was also discussed... . so again better that stuff goes into the Archive while we are still living, and then we know its safe.

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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by littleboot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:50 pm

as one Archie said ... there is nothing wrong with stuff going into the Museums vaults never to be seen again ... they go there to contribute to the academic record... are in safe storage for the nation, and if conserved properly will be there to the end of time ... and there is nothing wrong with that. There simply isnt enough room to display all our finds and often its inappropriate, better that they remain safely in the museums archives.
I am sure an Archie Would say this. But to what end?
What is the purpose of an 'academic record' if its never seen, or anyone outside an elite circle is never privy to it? Isn't it just one of those rather glib ideas that gets trotted out, dressed up as a Sacred Cow....and people are expected to simply accept at face value? Isn't it reasonable that at a time when ...for example....libraries are closing, daycare centres being abolished and all sorts of things we thought we'd already paid for being withdrawn.....we should re-examine this particular truism?
I guarantee you, more people have seen my finds and examined them and learned about them that would have done if they'd been put in a box to 'contribute to the academic record'. I say again what is the point of it? This history is OURS, not something that simply feeds Academia's own sense of worth for its own sake.
When they say 'in safe storage for the Nation'....what the hell does THAT mean? What 'nation' ? Whose nation? And what is the point of it being there 'unseen' 'till the end of time'? Eh? May as well have stayed in the ground 'until the end of time'.
Utter self-serving codswallop by a basically parasitic profession. B|
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Re: Very Serious Trouble at ta'Mill - Treasure Act

Post by oldartefact » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:13 pm

WVAM wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:49 pm
The arguement that archaeologists don't get the money is, as well expressed by Oxgirl, daft in the extreme. Let's ask any state funded arche to stand up and say they want 50% of the value of their finds. I'll just tell them we'll sell the finds to keep you in a job! And, while you're there it's time we appraised your role to see what you have contributed to archaeology.
In all fairness I think the aspect of Archi's not getting a reward was intended as justification for detectorists not getting one either... more like "We dont get a reward, so why should detectorists get one" ... as opposed to "detectorists get a reward, so why shouldnt we" ... But i really didnt like the photo of the little Girl with the piled up contents of her piggy bank ... I felt uncomfortable and embarrassed.... I didnt see that as moving anything forward.

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