Permissions contracts

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Emily
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Permissions contracts

Post by Emily » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:58 pm

I have seen many links to contracts, and some PDF versions made up my fellow detectirists, but what happens if the farmer/whoever owns the land doesn’t care about the finds and is happy for you to just get on with it??

Is there a contract that waves their rights to claim things back later if they’re deemed to be treasure/valuable?? Or just in general stops them claiming the items you’ve found.



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Twit
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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Twit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:30 pm

Good questions.

This is definitely not legal advice, but my understanding is that lacking a written contract a verbal agreement counts if it can be proven (as in both agree to what was said). So it is a question of trust, and yes, in the real world ( not necessarily detecting) people sometimes get taken advantage of.

It is a hard situation when someone says " yeah, just go ahead" to then ask them to sign a disclaimer.

I haven't been in a circumstance like that (in the sense of feeling to ask for in writing when offered to detect) , maybe someone knows how to go about it.

:-/

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Dave The Slave » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:38 pm

Without getting into contracts, if you just email them thanking for giving you permission, mentioning you will show them any finds and agree a 50-50 split on anything of value, that will give you something in writing.
Also worth keeping a copy of permission to detect with you on the off chance anyone asks what you are doing there.. Only had that a couple of times, when I mentioned showing written confirmation from bag, that was sufficient.
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Phil2401
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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Phil2401 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:58 pm

As I understand it, the landowner's ownership of any artefacts found on their land is inalienable in common law - i.e. if you had even a written statement from the landowner waiving any claims, that statement would be ineffective and they would still be within their common law rights to claim ownership. That situation would however be rather mean on the part of the landowner and trust, rather than contracts, is why the usual 50/50 arrangements work.

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Kefyn » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:19 pm

I recently found a half sovereign on a permission where the farmer said 'find what you keep, you won't find anything anyway'.
I went and showed him what I'd found and gave him half of the value of the coin.
He was more excited about the fact that I'd actually found something than receiving the money (Although he took it anyway 😊)
But had I not told him would have left me feeling like I had ripped him off somehow,and I think honesty goes a long way. 👍

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Phil2401 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:51 pm

Kefyn wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:19 pm
I recently found a half sovereign on a permission where the farmer said 'find what you keep, you won't find anything anyway'.
I went and showed him what I'd found and gave him half of the value of the coin.
He was more excited about the fact that I'd actually found something than receiving the money (Although he took it anyway 😊)
But had I not told him would have left me feeling like I had ripped him off somehow,and I think honesty goes a long way. 👍
Spot on, Kefyn :)
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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Wessexlad » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:56 pm

With any luck I'll be going out this weekend with another forum member who's kindly letting me share his permission (my first proper hunt!). I'll feel obliged to give him first refusal on anything I find, it's his permission after all, and he has the agreement with the landowner, not me. Like you Kefyn, I'd feel guilty if I didn't.
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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by looksold » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Emily wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:58 pm
I have seen many links to contracts, and some PDF versions made up my fellow detectirists, but what happens if the farmer/whoever owns the land doesn’t care about the finds and is happy for you to just get on with it??

Is there a contract that waves their rights to claim things back later if they’re deemed to be treasure/valuable?? Or just in general stops them claiming the items you’ve found.
I don't have any contracts but if you find anything that is declared treasure the split in value always seems to be 50/50 between landowner and finder, this seems to be an unwritten law and assumption that everyone seems happy with, if declared treasure the landowner can always donate their share !! they will try to get both of you to donate.
I have been lucky enough to find a few treasure cases and this is always what happened in my experience.
good luck emily!!

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Easylife » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:53 pm

I think that most farmers are happy with just a verbal contract and prefer to keep it casual, asking some for a written contract may put them off the idea of giving you permission as I first found out. So for me there are no written contracts unless the farmer insists on one which is of course fine as it is their land.
It is handy to have proof of permission to detect in writing but not essential. If challenged by a stranger I would politely suggest that they phone the farmer for conformation if it bothered them.
On my permissions we have never discussed the split of any potentially valuable finds, we trust each other so I am happy for them to decide the outcome of that and will go with whatever they decide even if they want it all or insist that I have it all. Just being able to detect freely on their land at anytime and keep all of the interesting finds is reward enough for me, anything else is a bonus. It is of course better to have something in writing to avoid any future misunderstandings, but the farmer may just want to keep it casual. :D
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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Twit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:14 pm

Phil2401 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:58 pm
As I understand it, the landowner's ownership of any artefacts found on their land is inalienable in common law - i.e. if you had even a written statement from the landowner waiving any claims, that statement would be ineffective and they would still be within their common law rights to claim ownership. That situation would however be rather mean on the part of the landowner and trust, rather than contracts, is why the usual 50/50 arrangements work.

Phil
I am not sure how that stands in reality.

In principle the landowner owns all but treasure, the allocation of reward for treasure being decided by the state, at 50/50 if there is an existing agreement with the finder, if not all goes to the landowner.

One thing that is certain is that the landowner does not have to pre-sign away any rights to the detectorist, so in principle the detectorist must hand objects found to the landowner immediately unless there is an agreement drawn up or understood. From that point of view a detectorist might only be thankful for being allowed to keep anything, whether by pre-agreement or otherwise.

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Phil2401 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 pm

Twit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:14 pm
Phil2401 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:58 pm
As I understand it, the landowner's ownership of any artefacts found on their land is inalienable in common law - i.e. if you had even a written statement from the landowner waiving any claims, that statement would be ineffective and they would still be within their common law rights to claim ownership. That situation would however be rather mean on the part of the landowner and trust, rather than contracts, is why the usual 50/50 arrangements work.

Phil
I am not sure how that stands in reality.

In principle the landowner owns all but treasure, the allocation of reward for treasure being decided by the state, at 50/50 if there is an existing agreement with the finder, if not all goes to the landowner.

One thing that is certain is that the landowner does not have to pre-sign away any rights to the detectorist, so in principle the detectorist must hand objects found to the landowner immediately unless there is an agreement drawn up or understood. From that point of view a detectorist might only be thankful for being allowed to keep anything, whether by pre-agreement or otherwise.
Well I was about to post another message saying that my post agrees with your earlier one in principle, Twit - so yes, I agree entirely with everything you say, but in different words :) It all comes down to building up a trusting relationship with the landowner, which takes time, but in my experience if you're open and honest with them, they'll be the same with you.

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Bfg » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:09 am

.
I have read in another topic that the 'code of conduct' from the NCMD was printed on the back of the permission, which when presented was seen as respect for the land and its owner. I feel that is a good thing for all.

For just £8 a year I have become a member of the NCMD which includes public liability insurance against property damage. Again I feel this is a worthwhile gesture - which can only help improve the image of the detector being responsible person.

However, the form for permission is in bewildering legal jargon that I am uncomfortable with, and I'm sure the landowner wouldn't want to sign :

National Council for Metal Detecting
Member of: The Sport and Recreation Alliance
MODEL SEARCH AGREEMENT

I...............................................................being the owner / occupier of land premises known as...........................................situated at.................................................
..... agree that in consideration of the payment to the landowner / occupier of............% of the value or rewards arising from the recovery of any property or objects found by the under-signed [herein after called the licensee(s)] over the value of £ ......., the licensee(s) may enter the said land or part thereof to search for items of buried or other material, whether antique or modern.

This agreement shall continue in force from (date) ..................until (date)....................
Provided that: -


Might I ask where to find a more user friendly version of a permission form.?

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Re: Permissions contracts

Post by Taxino8 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 pm

Kefyn wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:19 pm
I recently found a half sovereign on a permission where the farmer said 'find what you keep, you won't find anything anyway'.
I went and showed him what I'd found and gave him half of the value of the coin.
He was more excited about the fact that I'd actually found something than receiving the money (Although he took it anyway 😊)
But had I not told him would have left me feeling like I had ripped him off somehow,and I think honesty goes a long way. 👍
I’ve been lucky enough to find three half sovereigns on three different permissions.
First one took half the value.
I gave the second one to the farmer as he’s also a very old friend.
Third one I gave the full value to as I’d detected his land for five years and this was the first thing of value I’d found so I reckoned it was worth paying a bit extra for me to keep the coin and keep him happy.
The bonus was farmers talk to each other and I am pretty sure I could go to neighbouring farms and get permission as they know I’m honest and upfront.
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