UPDATE - A poignant find for Remembrance Day - Soldier ID'd & Family Picture & Details

Please post any finds here that you wish help with identification.
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UPDATE - A poignant find for Remembrance Day - Soldier ID'd & Family Picture & Details

Post by BAMBAM » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:38 pm

Hi all, quite sobering that this came out on monday nearly 100 years after the end of WW1. XP 150 @ 1.5 Disc. On a field night soil tipped at 4 inches.

I dont have full access to records but Pte William C Burrage is listed in medal records as 1914 .. R4 068713 ( not 068718 as on badge). Intriguing and interesting .. would love to Id this hero and send the badge to his family.

Thanks

Bambam
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:21 am

Why do I always see these at "Stupid o'clock" in the night!!.

As you say a very poignant find for Remembrance Day, especially so this year as it marks one hundred years since the end of the Great War.


I had this e-mail from Ancestry earlier this week, BUT I do not know if it applies to everybody or just those that already subscribe as members to other levels.
Edit: Looks like this is for everybody. Covers the period 8 - 13 Nov only.

"This Remembrance Day marks the centenary of the end of WWI. ‘The war to end all wars’ touched everyone’s lives, from soldiers on the battlefield to families on the home front.

Starting this Thursday, we’re inviting you to explore your family’s WWI story in detail, with free access to the Commonwealth collection on Fold3. Explore Fold3’s specialist military records in addition to Ancestry’s wartime records: everything you need to uncover your relatives’ stories on the battlefield and beyond
"


I will have a look for you.

Evan
Last edited by Saffron on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Easylife » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:27 am

An interesting find. Plenty of information there to go on. ::g
Surely this was lost rather than thrown in the night soil. x;
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Lowland » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:34 am

Hi
That's a magic find.....and as easylife says some good information to go on.
Brilliant-thank you for putting it up to see.
I reckon saffron just put the kettle on ::g
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by watermouse » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:30 am

very interesting find..all the best with researching the person. ::g

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:37 am

A lot of very rude words have just been said as I accidentally killed the window I had put all the details about him in B| B| B| B| B|

So here we go again.

The Private William Charles Burrage that Bambam had listed as R4 068713 is the correct man, my suspicion is that the person making the bracelet simply misread the final "3" as an "8" and said "Sorry that will have to do!".
(His Army Service Corps regimental number was R4/068713, and his Labour Corps 710252)

He was born at Burgh Castle, Suffolk (at the time, now in Norfolk) in 1875 where he was baptised on 1 March. In the 1881 census the family is living at North Lodge Gorlestone (Norfolk) he is 6 and shows his parents as Fredrick Charles Westgate Burrage (a gardener) and his wife Frances, and Elizabeth his 5 year old sister

When he signed up at Drifield on 2 May 1915 (so he volunteered) he lived at Hutton Cranswick, Beverley (so Bambams neck of the woods).
He was aged 39 yrs and 4 months, and of small build only 5' 4 1/4" and 126lbs (9 stone exactly), and had blue eyes and brown hair and worked as a "farm servant" (a term I have not seen before but assume is a farm labourer).

He married Mary Jane Moss at the Wesleyan Chapel Driffield on 28 Oct 1900, and they had lots of children!
Alice 1901, Lilian 1903, Anne 1904, Amy 1906, Fred 1908, Harry 1910, Mary 1912, William 1914, Stanley 1916.
.... Then Eva Constance born 18 Jan 1920 (see below about his break in service!!)

He first went to France on 27 December 1915, hence being awarded the 1915 Star as well as the British and Victory Medals.

He was at home from 13 April to 12 May 19, and then on the army reserve from 13 May to 10 June when re-enlisted under army order 196 of 1919 into the Labout Corps, where he was again posted to France. He was finally discharged from the army on 1 August 1920.

I will see if I can decipher some more of his records at a sensible hour.

Evan
Last edited by Saffron on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:53 am

Although a fairly small unit the Remount Service was vital to the war effort. It should be noted that the bulk of these horses and mules had not been broken and had to be got to the stage where they could be ridden or pull wagons or guns.

The following is taken from The Long Long Trail
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/re ... s-service/

The Army Service Corps Remounts Service

The ASC Remounts Service was responsible for the provisioning of horses and mules to all other army units. It was not a large part of the ASC, despite the huge numbers of animals produced, amounting in 1914 to only four Remount Squadrons that ran four Remount Depots (Woolwich, Dublin, Melton Mowbray and Arborfield).

A Remount Squadron consisted of approximately 200 soldiers, who obtained and trained 500 horses. They were generally older, experienced soldiers.

Animals were obtained during the war by compulsory purchase in the United Kingdom and by purchasing from North and South America, New Zealand, Spain, Portugal, India and China.

As the army expanded, several more ASC Remount Squadrons were established at home and overseas. ASC Remounts personnel in the Middle East theatres were supplemented by similar units of the Indian Army.
Organisation at home

During the war, four main Remounts Depots were established.

– Shirehampton (for horses received at Avonmouth)
– Romsey (for Southampton)
– Ormskirk (for Liverpool)
– Swaythling (a collecting centre for horses trained at the other three centres for onward shipment overseas).

A view of the immense scale of these operations can be judged from the statistics for Swaythling, as published in the “Times” in April 1919. Up to 1 April, it had received 342020 horses and mules (317165 from the USA; 6712 from Ireland; 9357 home purchased; 8856 returned from France). On that day, 3530 animals were stabled and cared for by a staff of 757 men.


Organisation overseas

A Base Remount Depot (with capacity for 2,600 animals) and two Advanced Remount Depots (300 each) went to France with the original British Expeditionary Force. As the campaign continued, further Base Remount Depots opened at the base ports.

At the peak in December 1917, these facilities were training a total of 93,847 horses and 36,613 mules.



The following is well worth a read and tells of one man’s experience in the remount service.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/with-th ... xperience/

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:18 am

His death was recorded in the Buckrose district of Yorkshire in the 4Q (Oct-Dec) 1941 aged 66.

The death of his wife Mary Jane was recorded in the Buckrose district of Yorkshire in the 4Q (Oct-Dec) 1953 aged 74.

Evan

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by watermouse » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:32 am

I just looked him up also saffron and msged BAM details we must have been typing it at sametime lol you pretty much covered what I sent..so ive deleted mine

he was put on a charge whilst in france for damaging the squadrons stables whilst in charge of two horses and a cart...he got 2 days C.C ..ive no idea what that is lol.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Oldman2 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:26 am

2 days CC is Confined to Camp (punishment)

Interesting read, thanks all.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by shaggybfc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:49 am

Interesting find. I love the way we’re to see into someone’s life as a result of a find. Great researching at silly o’clock in the morning ::g
Another mission to hand it back to a living family member?

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Bargeman » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 am

With that many children he must have some relations still living in the area



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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by JBM » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:50 am

A great story and very interesting post. ::g

I never get tired of reading these type of mails. whether 100 or many hundreds of years from the past.

Tracing real people who lived much the same as we do only a long time ago is fascinating.

Happy Hunting,

Jerry.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by BAMBAM » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:51 pm

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saki » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:50 pm

Saffron wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:37 am
The Private William Charles Burrage that Bambam had listed as R4 068713 is the correct man,
Brilliant research Well done
And well done also to those who were also away searching. Brilluant to hear a survivers history
Nice find BamBam and a feel good story at this 100 year anniversary ::g
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 pm

BAMBAM wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:51 pm
Family traced.

See link.
https://sites.google.com/site/gartonbu ... 1875-c1941
Being able to see pictures of the person makes such a massive difference.
I really do like that site and am so pleased that you have managed to find his descendants (with that number of children it was always likely!). I wish some I were currently trying to find was so easy.

Sorry I missed the fact that his mother had died and that in the 1881 census his father had remarried and it was a stepmother. At that time if a woman died it was very common for the widower to fairly quickly remarry if he had children.
A minor detail the "His daughter Connie reports that William Charles died on Boxing Day, the year before Dunkirk, that is, 1939." is incorrect as death records show 1941 (note also the URL says c1941), I suspect that is a simple error "the year after Dunkirk" (1941) overtime erroneously being remembered as "the year before Dunkirk" (1939), but the Boxing Day ties in with the 4Q (Oct-Dec). I have double checked this and there is no possible match for his death in 1939, and the age is also correct for the 1941 record.

Evan

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:48 pm

Bambam, please feel free to pass on any information that I have found to the family.

I noticed they do not mention his war service which was slightly unusual, and do not have a date of death for his wife, Mary Jane, which was recorded in the Buckrose district of Yorkshire in the 4Q (Oct-Dec) 1953 aged 74.

Evan

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by shaggybfc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:59 pm

Edit: comment removed.

Great work ::g
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:01 pm

Oldman2 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:26 am
2 days CC is Confined to Camp (punishment)

Interesting read, thanks all.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldier ... world-war/
The Long Long Trail site is brilliant for anybody with an interest in WWI, masses of information and a very friendly and helpful forum.

That list of abbreviations is a vital aid for anybody researching WWI military records.
Modern army records are as bad and a month ago I saw an article by a high up member of the government saying that they used far too many and should reduce the usage as he had to use a book containing the meanings to understand the reports that he got.

I had seen the charge for "damaging the squadrons stables whilst in charge of two horses and a cart" otherwise he seems to have kept out of trouble (a significant amount of soldiers normally of good behaviour had a few charges against them), by only 2 days Confined to Camp it was not taken too seriously.

Evan

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Saffron » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm

Post deleted.
It related to a comment by shaggybfc (since deleted) that was meant one way and unfortunately I took another.

To anybody that knows what I am talking about we have exchanged pms and as I said it was purely a misunderstanding.

Evan
Last edited by Saffron on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by JBM » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:21 pm

Steady fella`s this has been a great thread to follow.

Iam sure that everyone means well. ::g

Happy Hunting,

Jerry.

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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by shaggybfc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:27 pm

I do apologies. It was not meant to be a slight on Saffron’s work, it was said tongue in cheek, and appreciation to how much work Saffron’s put into the research,hence the smiley faces and the great work comment.
No offence was meant :(
Apologies
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by lonecoiler » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:00 pm

A great find and excellent research by one and all. It is good to know he survived what must have been the worst conflict of all time.
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by liamnolan » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:05 pm

What a fantastic example of how one detecting find story shared with colleagues can unlock a sad part of our history and uncover a familys past. Well done to all involved and especially Evan who I have had the pleasure to meet several times and who will not leave a stone unturned to get those exacting details. This is one topic that deserves to be read by all who have an interest in what history lies beneath our feet, Liam ::g
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by BAMBAM » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:07 pm

Thank you to all who helped with this. I will try contact surviving relatives and pass on the bracelet and research.
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by Bargeman » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:13 am

If you do this through the local paper at this time of year, and at this time in history, it could really show detecting in a good light, and be a feel good story for the local paper ::g remembering that this Sunday is so important in WW1 history.



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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by littleboot » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:36 am

Enjoyable thread and absolutely amazing what can be dug up now...as long as you have knowledgeable, motivated people doing the digging that is.
Massively impressive work by the forum yet again....and giving the lie to certain people who make it their business to label detectorists as people who are interested only in finding things of material value.
Treasure comes in all shapes and sizes. Seeing pictures of people makes the connection even more poignant.
My maternal grandfather was a very similar case to this...not a young man when the war started. Worked with horses as a groom and so went into that side of things in the army. Also by today's standards very small and slight. In the end he was invalided out on health grounds. But still spent the rest of his life doing farm work that was, in reality, beyond his physical capacity. He died in his 60's.
Stories like this, beyond the natural Remembrance of War, remind us how priviledged we are to live in the age we do. And that we probably all moan too much about trivialities. These people had hard lives and we are pampered. The other thing I noticed is that all the people involved....and all those children...had nice proper sensible names!!! Reflected what life was....and how far from reality some folks have now strayed.
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Re: A poignant find for Remembrance Day - ID help Req'd

Post by BAMBAM » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:43 pm

littleboot wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:36 am
Enjoyable thread and absolutely amazing what can be dug up now...as long as you have knowledgeable, motivated people doing the digging that is.
Massively impressive work by the forum yet again....and giving the lie to certain people who make it their business to label detectorists as people who are interested only in finding things of material value.
Treasure comes in all shapes and sizes. Seeing pictures of people makes the connection even more poignant.
My maternal grandfather was a very similar case to this...not a young man when the war started. Worked with horses as a groom and so went into that side of things in the army. Also by today's standards very small and slight. In the end he was invalided out on health grounds. But still spent the rest of his life doing farm work that was, in reality, beyond his physical capacity. He died in his 60's.
Stories like this, beyond the natural Remembrance of War, remind us how priviledged we are to live in the age we do. And that we probably all moan too much about trivialities. These people had hard lives and we are pampered. The other thing I noticed is that all the people involved....and all those children...had nice proper sensible names!!! Reflected what life was....and how far from reality some folks have now strayed.
That came from the heart Little boot. Thanks. Brian
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Re: UPDATE - A poignant find for Remembrance Day - Soldier ID'd & Family Picture & Details

Post by Ladybird66 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:26 pm

I had a few years ‘doing’ my family history and I couldn’t begin to estimate how many hours I spent scrolling through records. An enormously time consuming subject. (In fact I blamed it for getting DVT) Laid me up for 3 months.
I found some WW1 General Service buttons in a field, still tied together with a loop of leather. I was so intrigued by them I researched the field and discovered there used to be a house on one side. Found out who lived there and when, traced the only Son till he joined the army and discovered he had been killed in France in 1915.
It created such a different meaning to those buttons. A tangible connection to someone and his family.
We cannot begin to understand or appreciate what those people went through during those terrible times.
I could get quite political about it all but this is not the place.

Good job well done, all the contributors. :D ::g

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