Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Please post any finds here that you wish help with identification.
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Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi, I've been trying to find out what this image represents for ages. I feel I've seen something to do with this before - probably on one of those weird 1970s folklore things they used to show on kid's TV. Can't place it now, though.

It's a woman, dressed in dress and apron, holding two things that look like two besom brooms. She's giving one to a child, dressed similarly.

I found it on 250 year old pasture, about 14cm down. It's very thin metal, 0.3 or 0.4mm thick, pressed/embossed. I won't dare say what I think it's made of as I've been ridiculed for that on here before! =))

The pasture had a known track across it 250+ years ago, when it was ploughed. Part of a country estate, originally.

Any ideas as to the story/image gratefully received, or what it may have come off.

Thanks everyone!
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Bors » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:51 pm

I`d say it looks like she`s holding a broom in the left hand and what looks like a spoon in the right hand . Any chance of a view of the back of it ?

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Phil2401 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:05 pm

As Bors said - a view of the reverse might help.... no doubt you've done a load of research Jaz but like you, this thing is now annoying me and I want to try and find out what it is!

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Easylife » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:08 pm

The woman is holding a broom in each hand and looks like she is scorning the child. x;
99.jpg
And it's made of copper. :D
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Ollie K » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:20 pm

Arr yes this must surely be to depict the ancient fable of Miss Mandy Plumbstead.. Legend has it she was born with a 4 inch water pipe, attached to the underside of her elbow, and a shower head in her hand. All the village folk would gather at the Town square and bathe freely, owing completely to the generosity of Miss Plumbstead and her magical water supply, but then one day a small, quiet gentleman with flowing grey hair and a pet mink, dared to accuse the good lady of only being so generous as to further her standing in the community. (It was widely whispered that she was in fact having a torrid affair with a Local Magistrate.) At once, and with no reserve in her malice, she spat.. "If thou accusation may carry any weight, then may the good Lord mar thee character without mercy.."
No further accounts remain of the fate of either Miss Mandy Plumbstead, or any of the other protagonists, but many maintain that every reference to her, be it a solid artefact or rendition, will always be defaced in some way. This would possibly explain the defaced nature of this find. Or perhaps I drank too much beer this afternoon, due to Norwich thrashing Ipswich in the local footy derby, and also the six nations after.. :D
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by garrettoldboy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm

hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by garrettoldboy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:37 pm

garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm
hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon
hello, i would also go with 17th century

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by garrettoldboy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:38 pm

garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:37 pm
garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm
hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon
hello, i would also go with 17th century, a photo of tother side might help

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Johnnn » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 pm

Here are my two mysteries....HH....Johnnn
IMG_2869 - Copy.JPG
IMG_2869 - Copy.JPG
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by alloverover » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 pm

Looks like the woman has a tub of something under her arm and a spoon/spatula type thing in her right hand ?

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Slapster » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:44 pm

The broom was/is quite a powerful artefact in Pagan rituals, such as Handfasting.....

Long shot, but have a squint at:
https://www.paganspath.com/magik/broom.htm

May be something of interest....
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by garrettoldboy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:13 pm

Johnnn wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 pm
Here are my two mysteries....HH....JohnnnIMG_2869 - Copy.JPGIMG_2869 - Copy.JPG
hello, top one looks like the devil between the man and lady, the bottom one if you look at the style of clothes with the figure on the right mid 16th century Doublet/breeches and cloak , V and A museum

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:53 pm

Bors wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:51 pm
I`d say it looks like she`s holding a broom in the left hand and what looks like a spoon in the right hand . Any chance of a view of the back of it ?
The. Room in the right hand was damaged. The bristles have been flattened out a bit by plough or something. I'll do a closer pic of that and the back.
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:01 pm

Bors wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:51 pm
I`d say it looks like she`s holding a broom in the left hand and what looks like a spoon in the right hand . Any chance of a view of the back of it ?
Here you go. ::g
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:03 pm

Easylife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:08 pm
The woman is holding a broom in each hand and looks like she is scorning the child. x;
99.jpg
And it's made of copper. :D
I wondered that too, but looking at it under the loupe, it looks like the child is reaching up for the handle of the broom. Could be defending itself, I suppose.

Thanks!
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:06 pm

Ollie K wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:20 pm
Arr yes this must surely be to depict the ancient fable of Miss Mandy Plumbstead.. Legend has it she was born with a 4 inch water pipe, attached to the underside of her elbow, and a shower head in her hand. All the village folk would gather at the Town square and bathe freely, owing completely to the generosity of Miss Plumbstead and her magical water supply, but then one day a small, quiet gentleman with flowing grey hair and a pet mink, dared to accuse the good lady of only being so generous as to further her standing in the community. (It was widely whispered that she was in fact having a torrid affair with a Local Magistrate.) At once, and with no reserve in her malice, she spat.. "If thou accusation may carry any weight, then may the good Lord mar thee character without mercy.."
No further accounts remain of the fate of either Miss Mandy Plumbstead, or any of the other protagonists, but many maintain that every reference to her, be it a solid artefact or rendition, will always be defaced in some way. This would possibly explain the defaced nature of this find. Or perhaps I drank too much beer this afternoon, due to Norwich thrashing Ipswich in the local footy derby, and also the six nations after.. :D
I suspect the latter! -=+:-P
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:08 pm

That's better!
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:10 pm

garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm
hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon
Thanks, but that's down to my poor photography skills. Better pic now submitted. Sorry!
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:12 pm

alloverover wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 pm
Looks like the woman has a tub of something under her arm and a spoon/spatula type thing in her right hand ?
My poor photography skills, Phil! Better pic submitted.
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:15 pm

Slapster wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:44 pm
The broom was/is quite a powerful artefact in Pagan rituals, such as Handfasting.....

Long shot, but have a squint at:
https://www.paganspath.com/magik/broom.htm

May be something of interest....
Hmm, thanks, interesting stuff, but doesn't seem to quite fit.

Questions: why two brooms? Simply to get the child to clean? If so, why bother crafting a copper imprint of it...
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:20 pm

Apologies to everyone about the quality of my photos. I just couldn't get it clear enough until I used the loupe combined with the camera and a good led light source. Lesson learned.
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:43 am

alloverover wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 pm
Looks like the woman has a tub of something under her arm and a spoon/spatula type thing in her right hand ?
I think the tub you're seeing is the circle at the centre of the disc.
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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by Bors » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:34 am

Yes its now clear the right hand now is definitely carrying a type of broom so that`s a broom in each hand. A mystery for sure . Intriguing though to say the least . ::g

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by garrettoldboy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:45 am

jezperrott wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:10 pm
garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm
hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon
Thanks, but that's down to my poor photography skills. Better pic now submitted. Sorry!
hello, well done on the new photo, 2 birch rods or brooms, there must bee some information on a web site reference these types of token, it is very likely others have been found, as for photos years ago i bought a 200 X USB DIGITAL MICROSCOPE that i plugged into my first laptop under the old windows 98/Vista, these are well worth getting with the new updated systems,

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Re: Anyone good at folklore? Or something...

Post by jezperrott » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:31 am

garrettoldboy wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:45 am
jezperrott wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:10 pm
garrettoldboy wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 pm
hello, not PC now but it looks like a child being chastised, with what could be a birch rod and wooden cooking spoon
Thanks, but that's down to my poor photography skills. Better pic now submitted. Sorry!
hello, well done on the new photo, 2 birch rods or brooms, there must bee some information on a web site reference these types of token, it is very likely others have been found, as for photos years ago i bought a 200 X USB DIGITAL MICROSCOPE that i plugged into my first laptop under the old windows 98/Vista, these are well worth getting with the new updated systems,
Thanks, I'll look into it ::g
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