ID's as Early 1800s royal company of archers gilt button

Please post any finds here that you wish help with identification.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

ID's as Early 1800s royal company of archers gilt button

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:45 am

Hi all
Would really appreciate some help with this one.
Can't find it online ..
I think it's a livery button ,but is smaller
24 mm compared to all the others at 27 mm.
'spose cld be a cuff button?
Came out of a stubble field yesterday in Berwickshire.
GMP set to twelve o clock
Auto off.
New bracket on for forward mounting control box(big difference in stubble...coil doesn't skite over the top as much)
The design features a bow and two arrows with a thistle either side and topped with a crown.
Also the backstamp is a manufacturer I can't see online either
Looks like calfe & willis,new Bond Street,London.
Expertise greatly appreciated
Thanks for looking
LL
IMG_841.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Lowland on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.


ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Another livery button ? Totally stumped -help please

Post by Euro Detector » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:34 am

Really nice condition. ::g Can't find anything though for (S)calfe & Willis, although there were several manufacturers in the late 18th and early 19th century in New Bond Street, London.
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
fred
Posts: 5907
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 716 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: Another livery button ? Totally stumped -help please

Post by fred » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am

That looks like a Royal Crown which would be unusual on a livery button so I would initially look for an organisation, possibly military. If I had to guess at this early stage I would say it was from the The Royal Company of Archers or somebody very closely associated with it and date it to the first half of the 19thC. ::g

This one has some of the symbols of yours. Most units had several buttons on the go at the same time for different forms of dress as well as for different ranks.

http://www.jonnywilliamson.com/product/ ... circa-1822

And another detecting discussion. The link to the auction site doesn't help.:

http://www.detectingscotland.com/index. ... ic=12518.0
Last edited by fred on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Equinox 800 x2
CTX x2
Explorer II (for the Thames)

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button ? Totally stumped -help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:52 am

fred wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am
That looks like a Royal Crown which would be unusual on a livery button so I would initially look for an organisation, possibly military. If I had to guess at this early stage I would say it was from the The Royal Company of Archers or somebody very closely associated with it and date it to the first half of the 19thC. ::g
Thanks Fred
When I first saw it I thought royal company of archers!
Their buttons are different ,but I like the idea of a close association.
You're right datewise I think ,it has the look of quite an early one,compared to others I have.

The field it came out of is reputed to be a 'camp' field..it is right on top o a hill.
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button ? Totally stumped -help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:59 am

Cheers for the link...that's s a tidy button.
The archers apparently were active from 1676 till present day.(Wikipedia)
And were personal bodyguard to George IV on his state visit to Scotland in 1822.
Fascinating history with ties to the area I'm in...
Would be nice if this button was associated .
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button ? Totally stumped -help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am

Better pic of the front and reverse!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Euro Detector » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:18 am

The new images helped! I believe it reads "Scaife & Willis" instead of "Calfe & Willis". There are only very few hits on search engines for "Scaife & Willis", but these few do refer to London.
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:34 am

Euro Detector wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:18 am
The new images helped! I believe it reads "Scaife & Willis" instead of "Calfe & Willis". There are only very few hits on search engines for "Scaife & Willis", but these few do refer to London.
So it does!
Should've looked harder at the new photos as well
Thanks for that
Edit to say-have looked up family names that I can find associated with the archers, lots of arrow crests but not this one!
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

madproffesor
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:15 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by madproffesor » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:32 am

Looks like two thistles at the bottom, could it have a Scottish connection? :-/
Deus Full Kit. C/SCOPE 3MX.
Men and fish have one thing in common...
They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:51 am

Hi
More than likely-
'Twas found in Berwickshire
Just on the England Scotland border....
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:20 pm

Scaife and Willis woolen drapers
New Bond Street
London
In 1811
From the tradesman volume 6.
Also
Arthur scaife
And
George Willis
Dissolves partnership with Thomas Willis
In 1811
On 19th of January.
From the gazette
Which has them as woollen drapers,man mercers and tailors
Last edited by Lowland on Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Euro Detector » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:23 pm

Mystery solved. ::g
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:29 pm

Euro Detector wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:23 pm
Mystery solved. ::g
Solved the reverse anyway!!
Cheers
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Euro Detector » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:08 pm

It must be very rare, too. :))
The only button I find with some similarity to yours is this one (thistle wreath surmounted by a crown, bow and arrows are missing):
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showre ... ot&cat=217
Image
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:27 pm

Euro Detector wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:08 pm
It must be very rare, too. :))
The only button I find with some similarity to yours is this one (thistle wreath surmounted by a crown, bow and arrows are missing):
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showre ... ot&cat=217
Blimey
Nicely done
It is the same barring the centre motif.
You're like a terminator! ):=
The earl of mar
Founded the 21st in the 17 th century
He was an erskine
Just tried their crest...but no luck
But close one...
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

DiOz
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Been thanked: 203 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by DiOz » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:46 pm

A similar button found in the US....
http://www.treasurequestxlt.com/communi ... ton.64820/
....Dave. n;
Unidentified Family Livery Buttons VIDEO #1...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMdtQ9sj09A

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Euro Detector » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:49 pm

I'd say that's a match ::g
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
fred
Posts: 5907
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 716 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by fred » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Euro Detector wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:49 pm
I'd say that's a match ::g
Unfortunately they came to the same inconclusive conclusion as we all have. :D
Equinox 800 x2
CTX x2
Explorer II (for the Thames)

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:11 pm

fred wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:55 pm
Euro Detector wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:49 pm
I'd say that's a match ::g
Unfortunately they came to the same inconclusive conclusion as we all have. :D
Cheers everybody....
Conclusive conclusions are better.,. x;
This is a tricky one.
Would one showing up in the USA point more to a military button?
Mebbe not...
Glad I got a good sleep last night!
h;@
(God I used to hate emojis)
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

DiOz
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Been thanked: 203 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by DiOz » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Lowland wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:11 pm
Would one showing up in the USA point more to a military button?
It's not a family livery button.
....Dave. n;
Unidentified Family Livery Buttons VIDEO #1...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMdtQ9sj09A

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:16 pm

DiOz wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm
Lowland wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:11 pm
Would one showing up in the USA point more to a military button?
It's not a family livery button.
Thanks for the time spent
It's appreciated .
This ones going to drive me nuts!
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
fred
Posts: 5907
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 716 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by fred » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:26 pm

'drive'? :-/ Too late mate, you've already got the bug bigtime! You're doomed man, doomed! :D :D :D
Equinox 800 x2
CTX x2
Explorer II (for the Thames)

DiOz
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Been thanked: 203 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by DiOz » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:28 pm

Try emailing pics to the guy who has the British Military Buttons website...
http://asahelena.wixsite.com/militarybuttons

If he can't ID the button he knows people who may be able to.
....Dave. n;
Unidentified Family Livery Buttons VIDEO #1...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMdtQ9sj09A

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:55 pm

fred wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:26 pm
'drive'? :-/ Too late mate, you've already got the bug bigtime! You're doomed man, doomed! :D :D :D
Tell me about it.
Allways knew it would happen...
From an early age I've been howking holes in the ground,
But the research side of things
That's the kicker.
Learnt a lot on here
::g
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Another livery button? Or military help please

Post by Lowland » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:57 pm

DiOz wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:28 pm
Try emailing pics to the guy who has the British Military Buttons website...
http://asahelena.wixsite.com/militarybuttons

If he can't ID the button he knows people who may be able to.
Great minds...
I've got one or two others to do-
Just need to get on wi 'it.
Thanks again ::g
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
Euro Detector
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Not a family livery button military? help please

Post by Euro Detector » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:24 pm

Hi Lowland,

I had someone who knows a lot about old buttons have a look at yours, and he says it is an early button of the Royal Company of Archers in Scotland. They received their royal charter (and thus could use the crown) back in 1704. However, this unit was given the role as the Sovereign's Bodyguard in Scotland in 1822, which puts us right around the time Scaife and Willis was active at New Bond Street in London (1811). The post 1822 button designs are different, so this particular button must be made sometime between 1811-1822.

Below is a detail from a painting by Alexander Carse (1770-1843) showing members of the company on parade at the landing of King George IV at Leith in 1822, to give an idea on which type of uniforms these buttons were worn. ::g
Image
Euro Detector
XP Deus 3.2 with control unit, 11" coil, WS4 + XP MI-6 pinpointer
Metal detecting is like time travelling.
Image

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: Not a family livery button military? help please

Post by Lowland » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:58 pm

Euro Detector wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:24 pm
Hi Lowland,

I had someone who knows a lot about old buttons have a look at yours, and he says it is an early button of the Royal Company of Archers in Scotland. They received their royal charter (and thus could use the crown) back in 1704. However, this unit was given the role as the Sovereign's Bodyguard in Scotland in 1822, which puts us right around the time Scaife and Willis was active at New Bond Street in London (1811). The post 1822 button designs are different, so this particular button must be made sometime between 1811-1822.

Below is a detail from a painting by Alexander Carse (1770-1843) showing members of the company on parade at the landing of King George IV at Leith in 1822, to give an idea on which type of uniforms these buttons were worn. ::g
Speechless .......
Not for long
That's incredible work and stoked to put a fork in it.
I owe you a cold beer or two.....
Outstanding
Thank you ::g
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
fred
Posts: 5907
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 716 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: ID's as Early 1800s royal company of archers gilt button

Post by fred » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:39 pm

Great to get a positve confirmation. ::g

Talk about wheels within wheels. Have a look at the link in the second response and be amazed! :D :D :D
Equinox 800 x2
CTX x2
Explorer II (for the Thames)

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 2186 times
Been thanked: 1244 times
Contact:

Re: ID's as Early 1800s royal company of archers gilt button

Post by Lowland » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:45 pm

fred wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:39 pm
Great to get a positve confirmation. ::g

Talk about wheels within wheels. Have a look at the link in the second response and be amazed! :D :D :D
You were on it from the beginning lad.
What an excellent forum this is
Thanks to everybody who had a look
::g
There are very strong ties to the RCOA in the Scottish Borders
Which all adds to the button.

Also A good example of a makers backstamp helping to place a button

Incidentally got a decent sized seated Britannia pressed copper badge(or part of)
In the same corner
It looks a Georgian/early Victorian thing maybe off a military item.
I will get it fired on here,let you have a butchers.
Cheers again
:D
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

Post Reply

Return to “Identification of Finds”