Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Please post any finds here that you wish help with identification.
Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:57 pm

Any ideas please Guys? I recovered it yesterday. I know the top one is a 20p.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



User avatar
sweepstick47
Moderator
Posts: 8659
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:21 pm
Location: North Lincolnshire
Has thanked: 1203 times
Been thanked: 1939 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by sweepstick47 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:03 pm

Hello 'Spearhead' ::g It's certainly an interesting piece and without any real conviction, I'd opt for the pilgrims' badge.
No doubt there will be a more meaningful resolution shortly. A nice item whatever the origin ::g
Good Luck. Regards ss47
A disservice is no service at all in my book ::g

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Thanks SS47, the fact of it being double sided is what is throwing me.

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 pm

I think that I'd opt for the Pilgrims Badge too, or at least something with religious significance to the owner. It might well have started life as a token of some sort though. :D

I know that the petal design is a common one but your example looks Medieval to me. Have a look at these Italian moulds and see if you can recognise any of them. ::g
Equinox 800 x2

User avatar
Oxgirl36
Moderator
Posts: 7606
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:54 pm
Location: Oxfordshire
Has thanked: 3057 times
Been thanked: 3143 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Oxgirl36 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Lovely quality decoration and 4 holes :-/ I wonder if it would have been sewn onto clothing?

Nice find [:)
XP Deus !!£$

Hammered silver 2019 - 3

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:19 pm

Oxgirl36 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Lovely quality decoration and 4 holes :-/ I wonder if it would have been sewn onto clothing?

Nice find [:)
Sewing them onto clothing or a hat was very common and I can't think of any other reason for the holes. ::g
Equinox 800 x2

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:38 pm

fred wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 pm
I think that I'd opt for the Pilgrims Badge too, or at least something with religious significance to the owner. It might well have started life as a token of some sort though. :D

I know that the petal design is a common one but your example looks Medieval to me. Have a look at these Italian moulds and see if you can recognise any of them. ::g
No link visible Fred, can you please repeat. Thanks.

User avatar
littleboot
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:22 pm
Location: Normandy (the cider and cheese area)
Has thanked: 467 times
Been thanked: 1016 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by littleboot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm

On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
GMP, Tesoro Invincible, wellies.

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 4364
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 4593 times
Been thanked: 2244 times
Contact:

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Lowland » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 pm

That’s a beautiful find
Very intricate ::g
Hard to put down
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:37 am

littleboot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm
On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
Ah well if we are on the subject of what we see here goes. :D

A figure kneeling inside a church on the left and standing figure with a shield on the right. Between them is a palm leaf, the symbol of Christian martyrs (amongst others). To me this suggests Thomas a Becket but there are no real shortage of other contenders. On the back more palm leaves in the shape of a cross and and small crosses in the quarters between them.

The thin construction, relatively large size and hatched border around the edge is typical of the very earliest Medieval eclesiastical lead (or more usually high lead pewter) tokens. I absolutely love this and the more that I look at it the more I think that this is possibly quite early, possibly 13thC, and certainly one for the FLO to take a shufti at. ::g
Equinox 800 x2

User avatar
Lowland
Posts: 4364
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 am
Location: scottish middle march
Has thanked: 4593 times
Been thanked: 2244 times
Contact:

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Lowland » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:10 am

fred wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:37 am
littleboot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm
On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
Ah well if we are on the subject of what we see here goes. :D

A figure kneeling inside a church on the left and standing figure with a shield on the right. Between them is a palm leaf, the symbol of Christian martyrs (amongst others). To me this suggests Thomas a Becket but there are no real shortage of other contenders. On the back more palm leaves in the shape of a cross and and small crosses in the quarters between them.

The thin construction, relatively large size and hatched border around the edge is typical of the very earliest Medieval eclesiastical lead (or more usually high lead pewter) tokens. I absolutely love this and the more that I look at it the more I think that this is possibly quite early, possibly 13thC, and certainly one for the FLO to take a shufti at. ::g
Well put
And very interesting
::g
ne’er scald yer mou wi ither folks kale

targets
Posts: 1892
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:32 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by targets » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:03 am

never seen a 2 sided PB as they were simply cast in a mold ,just 1 sided ..if it was it would be in the PB guide books by mitchenor etc
' hammys how i love ya, how i love ya my dear old hammys '

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm

I still haven't given up on trying to identify this token for certain. This extract from the Ebay guide on tokens was prepared by the auction site Timelineoriginals:

The medieval Church was not ashamed to make profits in a period when visits to the shrines of saints became immensely popular. As well as selling pewter badges to pilgrims who wore them in their hats with as much enthusiasm as we now have for stickers on our holiday luggage, priests also sold pewter tokens, usually displaying the saint or his relics. Pilgrims could exchange them for food and accommodation as they trekked on long journeys to famous shrines. You will enjoy Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales as background reading if you decide to collect pilgrims’ tokens.

As far as i can see there is only one on the PAS Db with four piercings like yours and that is a uniface one. :D
Last edited by fred on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Equinox 800 x2

User avatar
Easylife
Posts: 3528
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:23 pm
Has thanked: 691 times
Been thanked: 1751 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Easylife » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:42 pm

On 13th century ampulla this reverse design is usually described as a four petal flower. It could well be 13th c. Nice find. ::g
Nox 800, 15" coil & Garrett carrot.
Deus V4.1, 11" coil, 9" HF coil & MI-6.
White's TDI SL

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:47 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm
I still haven't given up on trying to identify this token for certain. This extract from the Ebay guide on tokens was prepared by the auction site Timelineoriginals:

The medieval Church was not ashamed to make profits in a period when visits to the shrines of saints became immensely popular. As well as selling pewter badges to pilgrims who wore them in their hats with as much enthusiasm as we now have for stickers on our holiday luggage, priests also sold pewter tokens, usually displaying the saint or his relics. Pilgrims could exchange them for food and accommodation as they trekked on long journeys to famous shrines. You will enjoy Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales as background reading if you decide to collect pilgrims’ tokens.

As far as i can see there is only one on the PAS Db with four piercings like yours and that is a uniface one. :D
I really appreciate your help Fred. Thank you.

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:15 am

How about the main image being a stylised fleur de lis with the sides of it being made up of Bishop's croziers?

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:29 am

Spearhead wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:15 am
How about the main image being a stylised fleur de lis with the sides of it being made up of Bishop's croziers?
Quite possibly. To me that would still point towards some sort of an ecclesiastical token. ::g

There is mention in texts about tokens being sewn on to hats and clothes to show that people had permission to be doing something like selling in certain towns. Unfortunately I can't find any descriptions of what these tokens looked like.
Equinox 800 x2

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:41 pm

Thanks Fred, this piece certainly has some great history attached to it, it's just being able to unlock it.

User avatar
Bfg
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:43 pm
Location: Suffolk, England.
Has thanked: 294 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Bfg » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm

.
.. to my eyes ; the cross inbetween each branch or leaf looks to depict that of Cuthbert insomuch as the shape widens towards its tips (quite like the Maltese cross or the cross of St.John). However that of St. Cuthbert has a distinctive circle (..or jewel) in the middle of it, which your photograph suggests.

Quite similar though is the cross of Canterbury which features a square at its centre, although that is more often depicted as a being a cross of almost circular form.

I'll let you research the Cuthbert cross for yourself. Suffice to say that he was a saint of the early Northumbrian church, and his shrine is in Durham Cathedral which bears that same cross symbol

Just a thought.
Bfg ::g
. . . . . . . . . . . . There is more worth in a kindness than in gold. Introduce yourself : old giffer taking fist baby steps in md'g Minelab E-trac

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:32 pm

Bfg wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm
.
.. to my eyes ; the cross inbetween each branch or leaf looks to depict that of Cuthbert insomuch as the shape widens towards its tips (quite like the Maltese cross or the cross of St.John). However that of St. Cuthbert has a distinctive circle (..or jewel) in the middle of it, which your photograph suggests.

Quite similar though is the cross of Canterbury which features a square at its centre, although that is more often depicted as a being a cross of almost circular form.

I'll let you research the Cuthbert cross for yourself. Suffice to say that he was a saint of the early Northumbrian church, and his shrine is in Durham Cathedral which bears that same cross symbol

Just a thought.
Bfg ::g
Thanks. What we haven't yet really chased up is that the pilgrimage business in the Middle Ages was pan European and this could have originated somewhere on the Continent. ::g
Equinox 800 x2

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:11 pm

Thanks Guys, your continuing interest is much appreciated.
The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find.

Koala
Posts: 4410
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:47 pm
Location: Cheshire
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 1197 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Koala » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:40 pm

Boy Bishops lead token penny ?

Wouldn't bother too much about the holes. About 25% of my tokens look like they have been nailed to something.

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Koala wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:40 pm
Boy Bishops lead token penny ?

Wouldn't bother too much about the holes. About 25% of my tokens look like they have been nailed to something.
I agree that holes generally can be expected in a fairly high proportion of tokens. There are loads with a single hole on the PAS Db but only one with four holes like that. To me those ain't nail holes. :D
Equinox 800 x2

knotalot
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:27 pm
Has thanked: 372 times
Been thanked: 428 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by knotalot » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:55 pm

Spearhead wrote
" The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find."
I agree 100% well said Spearhead ::g

Dakaras
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:59 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Dakaras » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 am

knotalot wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:55 pm
Spearhead wrote
" The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find."
I agree 100% well said Spearhead ::g
+1 on that its a great find

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:35 pm

A quick update guys. From the next field I found a pilgrim's badge of the John the Baptist shrine in Amiens in northern France. My guess is that this is later than the pilgrim token but what a coincidence to get two pilgrim souvenirs in one small area.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
fred
Posts: 7882
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 1278 times
Been thanked: 4030 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 pm

I like that! Never had a complete one myself. ::g
Equinox 800 x2

User avatar
Oxgirl36
Moderator
Posts: 7606
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:54 pm
Location: Oxfordshire
Has thanked: 3057 times
Been thanked: 3143 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Oxgirl36 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm

You lucky so and so. Can I come detecting with you please OooO
XP Deus !!£$

Hammered silver 2019 - 3

Spearhead
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm
Has thanked: 553 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:41 pm

Just had a date for this from the FLO. Somewhere between 1500 and 1850AD. !!!!
Is it me? I would never have put this down as potentially Georgian or a piece of Victoriana.

User avatar
littleboot
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:22 pm
Location: Normandy (the cider and cheese area)
Has thanked: 467 times
Been thanked: 1016 times

Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by littleboot » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Nor would I. Either settle on the very early bit of that next-to-useless date range...or get a second opinion.
It sounds like some of the date ranges on the PAS Database these days. 8-}
GMP, Tesoro Invincible, wellies.

Post Reply

Return to “Identification of Finds Forum”