Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Please post any finds here that you wish help with identification.
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Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:57 pm

Any ideas please Guys? I recovered it yesterday. I know the top one is a 20p.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by sweepstick47 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:03 pm

Hello 'Spearhead' ::g It's certainly an interesting piece and without any real conviction, I'd opt for the pilgrims' badge.
No doubt there will be a more meaningful resolution shortly. A nice item whatever the origin ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Thanks SS47, the fact of it being double sided is what is throwing me.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 pm

I think that I'd opt for the Pilgrims Badge too, or at least something with religious significance to the owner. It might well have started life as a token of some sort though. :D

I know that the petal design is a common one but your example looks Medieval to me. Have a look at these Italian moulds and see if you can recognise any of them. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Oxgirl36 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Lovely quality decoration and 4 holes :-/ I wonder if it would have been sewn onto clothing?

Nice find [:)
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:19 pm

Oxgirl36 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Lovely quality decoration and 4 holes :-/ I wonder if it would have been sewn onto clothing?

Nice find [:)
Sewing them onto clothing or a hat was very common and I can't think of any other reason for the holes. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:38 pm

fred wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:46 pm
I think that I'd opt for the Pilgrims Badge too, or at least something with religious significance to the owner. It might well have started life as a token of some sort though. :D

I know that the petal design is a common one but your example looks Medieval to me. Have a look at these Italian moulds and see if you can recognise any of them. ::g
No link visible Fred, can you please repeat. Thanks.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by littleboot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm

On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Lowland » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 pm

That’s a beautiful find
Very intricate ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:37 am

littleboot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm
On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
Ah well if we are on the subject of what we see here goes. :D

A figure kneeling inside a church on the left and standing figure with a shield on the right. Between them is a palm leaf, the symbol of Christian martyrs (amongst others). To me this suggests Thomas a Becket but there are no real shortage of other contenders. On the back more palm leaves in the shape of a cross and and small crosses in the quarters between them.

The thin construction, relatively large size and hatched border around the edge is typical of the very earliest Medieval eclesiastical lead (or more usually high lead pewter) tokens. I absolutely love this and the more that I look at it the more I think that this is possibly quite early, possibly 13thC, and certainly one for the FLO to take a shufti at. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Lowland » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:10 am

fred wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:37 am
littleboot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:52 pm
On the top picture there is, on the left, what appears to be a sea horse.
The sea horse is an image associated with Thor.
Ah well if we are on the subject of what we see here goes. :D

A figure kneeling inside a church on the left and standing figure with a shield on the right. Between them is a palm leaf, the symbol of Christian martyrs (amongst others). To me this suggests Thomas a Becket but there are no real shortage of other contenders. On the back more palm leaves in the shape of a cross and and small crosses in the quarters between them.

The thin construction, relatively large size and hatched border around the edge is typical of the very earliest Medieval eclesiastical lead (or more usually high lead pewter) tokens. I absolutely love this and the more that I look at it the more I think that this is possibly quite early, possibly 13thC, and certainly one for the FLO to take a shufti at. ::g
Well put
And very interesting
::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by targets » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:03 am

never seen a 2 sided PB as they were simply cast in a mold ,just 1 sided ..if it was it would be in the PB guide books by mitchenor etc
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm

I still haven't given up on trying to identify this token for certain. This extract from the Ebay guide on tokens was prepared by the auction site Timelineoriginals:

The medieval Church was not ashamed to make profits in a period when visits to the shrines of saints became immensely popular. As well as selling pewter badges to pilgrims who wore them in their hats with as much enthusiasm as we now have for stickers on our holiday luggage, priests also sold pewter tokens, usually displaying the saint or his relics. Pilgrims could exchange them for food and accommodation as they trekked on long journeys to famous shrines. You will enjoy Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales as background reading if you decide to collect pilgrims’ tokens.

As far as i can see there is only one on the PAS Db with four piercings like yours and that is a uniface one. :D
Last edited by fred on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Easylife » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:42 pm

On 13th century ampulla this reverse design is usually described as a four petal flower. It could well be 13th c. Nice find. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:47 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm
I still haven't given up on trying to identify this token for certain. This extract from the Ebay guide on tokens was prepared by the auction site Timelineoriginals:

The medieval Church was not ashamed to make profits in a period when visits to the shrines of saints became immensely popular. As well as selling pewter badges to pilgrims who wore them in their hats with as much enthusiasm as we now have for stickers on our holiday luggage, priests also sold pewter tokens, usually displaying the saint or his relics. Pilgrims could exchange them for food and accommodation as they trekked on long journeys to famous shrines. You will enjoy Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales as background reading if you decide to collect pilgrims’ tokens.

As far as i can see there is only one on the PAS Db with four piercings like yours and that is a uniface one. :D
I really appreciate your help Fred. Thank you.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:15 am

How about the main image being a stylised fleur de lis with the sides of it being made up of Bishop's croziers?

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:29 am

Spearhead wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:15 am
How about the main image being a stylised fleur de lis with the sides of it being made up of Bishop's croziers?
Quite possibly. To me that would still point towards some sort of an ecclesiastical token. ::g

There is mention in texts about tokens being sewn on to hats and clothes to show that people had permission to be doing something like selling in certain towns. Unfortunately I can't find any descriptions of what these tokens looked like.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:41 pm

Thanks Fred, this piece certainly has some great history attached to it, it's just being able to unlock it.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Bfg » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm

.
.. to my eyes ; the cross inbetween each branch or leaf looks to depict that of Cuthbert insomuch as the shape widens towards its tips (quite like the Maltese cross or the cross of St.John). However that of St. Cuthbert has a distinctive circle (..or jewel) in the middle of it, which your photograph suggests.

Quite similar though is the cross of Canterbury which features a square at its centre, although that is more often depicted as a being a cross of almost circular form.

I'll let you research the Cuthbert cross for yourself. Suffice to say that he was a saint of the early Northumbrian church, and his shrine is in Durham Cathedral which bears that same cross symbol

Just a thought.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:32 pm

Bfg wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:27 pm
.
.. to my eyes ; the cross inbetween each branch or leaf looks to depict that of Cuthbert insomuch as the shape widens towards its tips (quite like the Maltese cross or the cross of St.John). However that of St. Cuthbert has a distinctive circle (..or jewel) in the middle of it, which your photograph suggests.

Quite similar though is the cross of Canterbury which features a square at its centre, although that is more often depicted as a being a cross of almost circular form.

I'll let you research the Cuthbert cross for yourself. Suffice to say that he was a saint of the early Northumbrian church, and his shrine is in Durham Cathedral which bears that same cross symbol

Just a thought.
Bfg ::g
Thanks. What we haven't yet really chased up is that the pilgrimage business in the Middle Ages was pan European and this could have originated somewhere on the Continent. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:11 pm

Thanks Guys, your continuing interest is much appreciated.
The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Koala » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:40 pm

Boy Bishops lead token penny ?

Wouldn't bother too much about the holes. About 25% of my tokens look like they have been nailed to something.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Koala wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:40 pm
Boy Bishops lead token penny ?

Wouldn't bother too much about the holes. About 25% of my tokens look like they have been nailed to something.
I agree that holes generally can be expected in a fairly high proportion of tokens. There are loads with a single hole on the PAS Db but only one with four holes like that. To me those ain't nail holes. :D
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by knotalot » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:55 pm

Spearhead wrote
" The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find."
I agree 100% well said Spearhead ::g

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Dakaras » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 am

knotalot wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:55 pm
Spearhead wrote
" The thing that I really like about this forum is the support and enthusiasm of the members for the finds uploaded. There is no jealousy or animosity, just genuine interest and appreciation in the things we find."
I agree 100% well said Spearhead ::g
+1 on that its a great find

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:35 pm

A quick update guys. From the next field I found a pilgrim's badge of the John the Baptist shrine in Amiens in northern France. My guess is that this is later than the pilgrim token but what a coincidence to get two pilgrim souvenirs in one small area.
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by fred » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 pm

I like that! Never had a complete one myself. ::g
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Oxgirl36 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm

You lucky so and so. Can I come detecting with you please OooO
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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by Spearhead » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:41 pm

Just had a date for this from the FLO. Somewhere between 1500 and 1850AD. !!!!
Is it me? I would never have put this down as potentially Georgian or a piece of Victoriana.

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Re: Token or Pilgrim's badge?

Post by littleboot » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Nor would I. Either settle on the very early bit of that next-to-useless date range...or get a second opinion.
It sounds like some of the date ranges on the PAS Database these days. 8-}
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