Ancient gold ?

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Ancient gold ?

Post by stubble hunter » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:58 pm

Image

Found by a fellow club member on a field that has yielded much in medieval finds.
He has just had it tested at a jewellers today and it is 11 karat gold.
Strange figure for gold but then what do I know.
Would welcome the opinion of others.
FLO will certainly be having a good look at it next month.
Cheers !
John
Last edited by stubble hunter on Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Spearhead » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:06 pm

Viking is certainly a possibility. Great find.

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by fred » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:07 pm

Viking or Saxon every time to me! Lovely ::g Don't believe the test. If the picture is anything like accurate that is high carat gold. ::g By it's shape it may be either a purpose made ring which has come apart at the joint or a section of bracelet which has been recycled as a ring. Both are known. :D
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by THE MOLE » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:13 pm

i bet his heart pounded when he saw that come up x;

great find ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by stargazer » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 pm

That is real 'ancient gold' . FLO will drool, just as we are. ::g
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Twit » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:31 pm

fred wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:07 pm
Viking or Saxon every time to me! Lovely ::g Don't believe the test. If the picture is anything like accurate that is high carat gold. ::g By it's shape it may be either a purpose made ring which has come apart at the joint or a section of bracelet which has been recycled as a ring. Both are known. :D
Was about to comment old 11kt gold would not have that look, probably not even if cleaned... but didn't think it might not have been tested right.

::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Hawkeyes » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:35 pm

I'm drooling now!!! well saved amazing find ::g
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Redlock » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:45 pm

Really nice find..i would be well chuffed. ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Raymond » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:49 pm

Well done very nice find

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by stubble hunter » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:14 pm

Thanks for replies everyone and I have since amended carat to karat.
I agree.. it clearly is of a high brilliance gold and 11 karat does not cut it.
It would mean 11 parts pure gold and 13 parts another metal yes ?
Cheers !
John
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Mega B » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:28 pm

Absolutely a stunning find and possible a find of a lifetime,could well be worth going back to that exact location and see if anything else in the same area,that is a high status item for sure,and just maybe something else could be around.

Very well done on a stunning find.
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by fred » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:56 pm

stubble hunter wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:14 pm
Thanks for replies everyone and I have since amended carat to karat.
I agree.. it clearly is of a high brilliance gold and 11 karat does not cut it.
It would mean 11 parts pure gold and 13 parts another metal yes ?
Cheers !
John
What? Carat is the proper British unit of measurement! :D Your description of what it means is correct though. ::g
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by alfaowner » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:07 pm

That’s a lovely find regardless of its age ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by shaggybfc » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:06 pm

really nice find ::g
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Machinist » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:40 pm

Great find John well done to the finder ::g

I agree it looks a higher carat than he was told.

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by stubble hunter » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:07 am

fred wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:56 pm
stubble hunter wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:14 pm
Thanks for replies everyone and I have since amended carat to karat.
I agree.. it clearly is of a high brilliance gold and 11 karat does not cut it.
It would mean 11 parts pure gold and 13 parts another metal yes ?
Cheers !
John
What? Carat is the proper British unit of measurement! :D Your description of what it means is correct though. ::g
Hi Fred,
I am obviously interpreting something wrong here. Yes Carat is a British unit of measurement but surely this is only for diamonds and other gems ?

I googled carat and karat ok and I assumed that carats were for only for diamonds and other gem stones whilst karats were for gold.
I sourced the following from https://science.howstuffworks.com/dicti ... tion64.htm
A carat is a unit of weight for diamonds and other gemstones. One carat equals 200 milligrams (0.200 grams). There are 453 grams in a pound (1,000 grams to a kilogram). Therefore, if your fiancee weighs 170 pounds, you have a 385,050-carat fiancee!

A karat, when used with gold, is a unit of purity-- 24-karat gold is pure gold, but usually you mix gold with a metal like copper or silver to make jewelry (because pure gold is too soft). Each karat indicates 1/24th of the whole. So if a piece of jewelry is made of metal that is 18 parts gold and 6 parts copper, that is 18-karat gold.
So on the above basis why would carat be used for measuring the purity of gold ? Dont we abbreviate gold rings for example to 9k, 18k etc ?
Perhaps the UK differ from the rest of the world (US for example) in the phraseology/use of carat v karat.
Would be delighted to be proved wrong in my thoughts ok but the above is my interpretation.
Thoughts everyone ?
Cheers !
John
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Rhumours » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 am

Wow. I'd lose a kidney if I dug that up. Beautifully made. Although techniques have changed very little over time ability has.

In your photo I can see each strand was filed round because you can see the facets along the rod. The both twisted together. Truly a beautiful thing on many levels.

Agree 11k is unlikely due to colour which looks around 22 to 24 but inclusion of other metals could cause colour distortion as could camera and each monitor. It doesn't matter though really because the item itself is pricelss.

Personally depending what machine he had I'd be interested to hear how it presented on it as well. If that's known.

Finally size it. It should tell you if it were worn by a man or woman.

Made my evening that so thank you.
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Dave The Slave » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:32 am

Brilliant find!!
Interesting to see the outcome.
Oxford English Dictionary: Carat = 1, a unit of weight for precious stones, now equivalent to 200 milligrams. 2,a purity of Gold, pure Gold being 24 carats ( US Karat ).
Another clue to US based articles, we write jeweller, US=jeweler.
So we do differ from the US on spellings.
The main thing is a Brilliant find and thanks for posting. ::g
Cheers,
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by fred » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:03 am

stubble hunter wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:07 am
fred wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:56 pm


What? Carat is the proper British unit of measurement! :D Your description of what it means is correct though. ::g
Hi Fred,
I am obviously interpreting something wrong here. Yes Carat is a British unit of measurement but surely this is only for diamonds and other gems ?

I googled carat and karat ok and I assumed that carats were for only for diamonds and other gem stones whilst karats were for gold.
I sourced the following from https://science.howstuffworks.com/dicti ... tion64.htm
A carat is a unit of weight for diamonds and other gemstones. One carat equals 200 milligrams (0.200 grams). There are 453 grams in a pound (1,000 grams to a kilogram). Therefore, if your fiancee weighs 170 pounds, you have a 385,050-carat fiancee!

A karat, when used with gold, is a unit of purity-- 24-karat gold is pure gold, but usually you mix gold with a metal like copper or silver to make jewelry (because pure gold is too soft). Each karat indicates 1/24th of the whole. So if a piece of jewelry is made of metal that is 18 parts gold and 6 parts copper, that is 18-karat gold.
So on the above basis why would carat be used for measuring the purity of gold ? Dont we abbreviate gold rings for example to 9k, 18k etc ?
Perhaps the UK differ from the rest of the world (US for example) in the phraseology/use of carat v karat.
Would be delighted to be proved wrong in my thoughts ok but the above is my interpretation.
Thoughts everyone ?
Cheers !
John
Karat is the foreign spelling of the good old British carat, sometimes abbreviated to Ct (see photo) or even C! :D All British legislation will refer to carats, what them furriners do is their own business (soon anyway :D ). It doesn't really matter as both terms are well understood anyway but I'd always go for real English unless an item was clearly marked with a 'K'. Try a search online for 9 carat gold or similar and see what you find. There are definitions above of the difference between the precious stone version and the gold fineness one.

Also more than you will ever need to know about it from Wikipedia:

'Karat is a variant of carat. First attested in English in the mid-15th century, the word carat came from Middle French carat, in turn derived either from Italian carato or Medieval Latin carratus. These were borrowed into Medieval Europe from the Arabic qīrāṭ meaning "fruit of the carob tree", also "weight of 4 grains", (قيراط) and was a unit of mass[13] though it was probably not used to measure gold in classical times.[14] The Arabic term ultimately originates from the Greek kerátion (κεράτιον) meaning carob seed (literally "small horn")[14][15][16] (diminutive of κέρας – keras, "horn"[17]).

In 309 CE, Roman Emperor Constantine I began to mint a new gold coin solidus that was ​1⁄72 of a libra (Roman pound) of gold[18] equal to a mass of 24 siliquae, where each siliqua (or carat) was ​1⁄1728 of a libra.[19] This is believed to be the origin of the value of the karat.[20]'
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Allectus » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:32 am

Possibly an Iron Age torc fragment. ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Fisher1266X » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 am

Lovely find ::g

We recovered a gold loop that we know is from antiquity as several denarii have been found near to it. Unfortunately it couldn't be dated as there are no distinguishing features to allow this even though the museum agreed that it was ancient 8-|

gold-fragment-oblique_23951900719_o.jpg
As mentioned in the replies; it could be anything from BA to Medieval :D
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by targets » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:08 am

analysis to see what the base metals are in the gold alloy
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by At Digger » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:24 am

Gorgeous piece, well done to the finder ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Twit » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:24 pm

targets wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:08 am
analysis to see what the base metals are in the gold alloy
Almost always copper, electrum (silver and gold) was a natural phenomenon I think... something to read up on. Objects can be dated by calculating alloy composition and then comparing to what metals were used/available/naturally included at different times.

::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by stargazer » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:57 pm

Rose gold is another 'mix'.
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Twit » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:42 pm

Some reading on metals and gold... just because I have them open on the browser...

Metal use timeline
http://www.makin-metals.com/about/histo ... fographic/

Reconstructing manufacture techniques
https://vias.univie.ac.at/en/research/t ... metalwork/

Some UK examples and discussion
https://books.google.pt/books?id=MxnvAg ... e&q=dating gold alloys&f=false

Etruscan gold dentistry.... https://books.google.pt/books?id=XjklDw ... &q=history gold alloys&f=false

Examples of modern gold alloys
http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?I ... ktn&NM=230

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Agent Smith » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:57 pm

I can only imagine the gold dance that was done when that was dug up......awesome ::g

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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by oldartefact » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:59 pm

very very very well done ... the more buttery the higher the carat!!
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by tman » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:52 pm

The FLO is saying its a
9th century BC Iron Age, 11 carat twisted gold ring ... 3000 years old x; holy moly
It's going through the treasure process at the moment ::g
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Re: Ancient gold ?

Post by Oxgirl36 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:54 pm

Wow now that’s a great iD :-O

Thanks for updating us ::g
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