My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Please tell us a little about your finds and if possible add a few pictures.
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by newseeker » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Nice find! i confused on when he was born? The charge sheet shows that accused is.23 years five months of age and was inducted 22 August 1941.


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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Phil2401 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:14 pm

Fascinating but sad stuff - well found. It's all been said, but this article gives some insight into US Army attitudes (an unrelated case) at the time - https://www.archives.gov/publications/p ... inson.html

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Saffron » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Me and my boy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:48 am
There’s probably as many wives called Ruby Lee Clarence too
I have done LOTS of family history over the years, and research into soldiers (mainly British), and know how easy it can be to make mistakes, mainly because names you think would be unique are not and you follow the wrong person.

For clarity the screen shot that was posted with the comment above showing a wife Ruby Lee Clarence and the family living in Houston Texas is NOT, the William Clarence that the dogtag belongs to and was found guilty of the murder.

As Newseeker said "The charge sheet shows that accused is.23 years five months of age and was inducted 22 August 1941.", so he was born about 1922. The dog tag also shows he was from Miami Florida.

While the Houston Clarence Williams was born about 1945. A Clarence Williams married to a Ruby Lee Williams in the USA at that time would not be as rare a combination as we might think now.
The death certificate for Ruth Bell Williams is for this family and not connected to the dog tag story.

Evan

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Saffron » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:28 pm

Easylife wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:37 pm
Here's your man.
Clarence was Dishonourably discharged. for murdering a fellow soldier, see page 91.

CW.png
An excellent bit of research there Easylife, and a fascinating read.

What I noticed and thought was very significant was the fact that at the original trial "three-fourths of the members of the court present at the time the vote was taken concurring was found guilty of both charges and specifications." it was only a majority decision, likewise with the sentencing.

Evan
Last edited by Saffron on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Saffron » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:31 pm

newseeker wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:42 pm
Nice find! i confused on when he was born? The charge sheet shows that accused is.23 years five months of age and was inducted 22 August 1941.
The charge sheet is correct.

The Clarence Williams in Houston Texas born about 1904 is a different person and not connected with the dog tag.

Evan

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Saffron » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:51 pm

Me and my boy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:43 pm
Back I go to where I found him, tail between my legs. He’s going back from where I found him.
Ps we won’t tell the wife she was right( again🙄)
NO!!. DO NOT TAKE THIS BACK TO WHERE YOU FOUND IT
THIS IS A FASCINATING BIT OF HISTORY


Although nobody could have imagined what we would have found out about Clarence Williams when the picture of the dog tag was first posted and in many ways it is a sad story, it is still history and deserves to be saved and recorded.


Pete summed it up perfectly when he said
I would not get rid of the tag, its far too interesting a story..In fact I would be tempted to mount the tag in a frame along with a copy of the appeal document outlining the events...

At the end of the day, its all "history" whether we like it or not, and its not very often you can get a corroborated back story to link to a find like that...


From the charge sheet you can see that he had not been in trouble before and further research might even find out a lot of the good side of him. Also as a youg person, only 23, drafted into the Army (initially for one year, and extended so not a volunteer) and having previously been provoked who knows what he went through.
It is even more fitting as we mark the events of D-Day.

Evan

Mods: Sorry about shouting with the capitals but in this case you must agree with my views.

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Phil2401 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:13 pm

Saffron wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:28 pm
Easylife wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:37 pm
Here's your man.
Clarence was Dishonourably discharged. for murdering a fellow soldier, see page 91.

CW.png
An excellent bit of research there Easylife, and a fascinating read.

What I noticed and thought was very significant was the fact that at the original trial "three-fourths of the members of the court present at the time the vote was taken concurring was found guilty of both charges and specifications." it was only a majority decision, likewise with the sentencing.

Evan
And there would have been no non-white deciding officers at the time...
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Me and my boy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:15 pm

Saffron wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:51 pm
Me and my boy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:43 pm
Back I go to where I found him, tail between my legs. He’s going back from where I found him.
Ps we won’t tell the wife she was right( again🙄)
NO!!. DO NOT TAKE THIS BACK TO WHERE YOU FOUND IT
THIS IS A FASCINATING BIT OF HISTORY


Although nobody could have imagined what we would have found out about Clarence Williams when the picture of the dog tag was first posted and in many ways it is a sad story, it is still history and deserves to be saved and recorded.


Pete summed it up perfectly when he said
I would not get rid of the tag, its far too interesting a story..In fact I would be tempted to mount the tag in a frame along with a copy of the appeal document outlining the events...

At the end of the day, its all "history" whether we like it or not, and its not very often you can get a corroborated back story to link to a find like that...


From the charge sheet you can see that he had not been in trouble before and further research might even find out a lot of the good side of him. Also as a youg person, only 23, drafted into the Army (initially for one year, and extended so not a volunteer) and having previously been provoked who knows what he went through.
It is even more fitting as we mark the events of D-Day.

Evan

Mods: Sorry about shouting with the capitals but in this case you must agree with my views.
No need to apologise to the mods. I’m begining to compile all The information that’s being found by everyone’s great work and enthusiasm and I will probably either gift it and the info to a more worthy custodian than myself, if I can’t get it back to his family members. I need to make sure I do the right thing with it. I will also take everyone’s guidance on here will into account.
It’s a very Evocative story And I’m beginning to feel very sorry for him if he was wrongly convicted.

I’m Supposed to be putting the children to bed but this is occupied too much of my time and I’ve not read all the information that has been put forward so far and Im going to sit down later with a beer and try and absorb it all.
Many thanks all so far.
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by ninja nige » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:22 pm

hi.
one of the best finds on this site ever.
a great story, sad but true.
his grandkids, if he had any would love to have that
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by lonecoiler » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:29 pm

When this story first appeared I was in the research camp and forget about the can of worms. Now I still agree with the research, excellent work by one and all, but agree with your wife about the can of worms. I would keep the find and the research but would not even think about passing this on to the family. His daughter may have been told he was killed in action. Anyway, be prepared to eat the masses of humble pie that Mrs M and MB is going to serve up. Thanks for you and others for sharing this great story. :;@
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Phil2401 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:32 pm

ninja nige wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:22 pm
hi.
one of the best finds on this site ever.
a great story, sad but true.
his grandkids, if he had any would love to have that
Nige
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by hartsman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 pm

Great find, great research and a great story. Well done all. ::g

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Oxgirl36 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:18 pm

No mods harmed or worried by shouting in your post Evan - I was shouting it too =))

Brilliant research Easylife ::g Agree this is a wonderful story. Might be worth contacting the Imperial War Museum. This is a poignant story :)
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Bibelot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:19 pm

Awesome research !
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Bibelot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:21 pm

I would keep the dog tag. It is a find of a lifetime, in its own right.
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Me and my boy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:27 pm

Oxgirl36 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:18 pm
No mods harmed or worried by shouting in your post Evan - I was shouting it too =))

Brilliant research Easylife ::g Agree this is a wonderful story. Might be worth contacting the Imperial War Museum. This is a poignant story :)
Lovely idea, I will try tomorrow, time allowing
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Ladybird66 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:41 pm

I must add my two pennies worth here. I’ve never shied from admitting that I was a War baby. I suspect my father didn’t even know about me. I know his name and that he was in the US Airforce and that he lived somewhere in Maine, but no more.
From this point of view I cringe from the idea of contacting any relatives. There are too many un-knowns. I ask myself, ‘how would I feel if I found out my father was convicted of murder’. How would you feel ?
No matter what the circumstances the outcome is he was found guilty and the probability of his daughter being told the truth are slim.
Do your research, it’s interesting and, as already said, great to put some real history to a found item but my advice, in this case, take it no further.
If he was 23 add 74 to that, it comes to 97. Very doubtful he’s still alive.

Great thread though. Amazing how’s it’s brought feelings and facts to light ::g

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Easylife » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:53 pm

Me and my boy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:15 pm

It’s a very Evocative story And I’m beginning to feel very sorry for him if he was wrongly convicted.
Wrongly convicted? Well it appears that he had intended to shoot and kill all four of his fellow soldiers. On the basis of the given facts so far, I'd agree that it was murder. Though at best these days it could have been manslaughter based on an unsound mind. x;
A great thought provoking find though. ::g
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Easylife » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:57 pm

It's just like researching your family tree, there's always a chance of discovering some skeletons in the closet. But as has been said things were a bit different back then and it seems that Clarence was already not in a good place when pushed over the edge. It's possible that he could have had offspring here in the UK? x;
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Saffron » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:08 am

Ladybird66 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:41 pm
I must add my two pennies worth here. I’ve never shied from admitting that I was a War baby. I suspect my father didn’t even know about me. I know his name and that he was in the US Airforce and that he lived somewhere in Maine, but no more.
From this point of view I cringe from the idea of contacting any relatives. There are too many un-knowns. I ask myself, ‘how would I feel if I found out my father was convicted of murder’. How would you feel ?
No matter what the circumstances the outcome is he was found guilty and the probability of his daughter being told the truth are slim.
Do your research, it’s interesting and, as already said, great to put some real history to a found item but my advice, in this case, take it no further.
If he was 23 add 74 to that, it comes to 97. Very doubtful he’s still alive.

Great thread though. Amazing how’s it’s brought feelings and facts to light ::g
I have noticed a few references to his "daughter", when he signed up he was single and I very much doubt if he married and had a daughter between signing up and the court case.

While in jail "for life", although possibly released at some point, gives very limited options for having a child!!!!

Additionaly no posts give any indication that he had a daughter, (the posts suddenly started to mention her).

Therefore I suspect the idea of a daughter came from the one about the unrelated family in Houston where there was a daughter (Ruth Bell Williams). ...... Just noticed that this post has been deleted (rightly as it was unrelated and caused confusion).

Evan

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Ladybird66 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:30 am

Weren’t they allowed conjugal rights visits ?

(Did I get the right word there ?) you know what I mean :D

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Easylife » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:34 am

Yep it's always best to stick to the proven known facts of the matter Evan. ::g
So was there a timeframe that the tag was lost in the UK?
Just as an observation I notice that the loop is not worn through at all and that it is very centrally doubled over, so could it have been discarded? x;
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Saffron » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:39 am

Easylife wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:34 am
Yep it's always best to stick to the proven known facts of the matter Evan. ::g
So was there a timeframe that the tag was lost in the UK?
Just as an observation I notice that the loop is not worn through at all and that it is very centrally doubled over, so could it have been discarded? x;

An interesting observation about "very centrally doubled over, so could it have been discarded?".

I have seen a fair few dog tags, mainly British, and a few are slightly bent but I have never seen one bent double like this and being so central it does suggest it might have been done on purpose.


Clarence Williams signed up at Camp Blanding, Florida.
### Edit: I had incorrect information here (the correct name, but wrong man) rl; rl; ###
### For the correct enlistment details see GeorgMKs post further downt his thread

The name and address of next of kin were not added to US dog tags after 20 July 1943, so this is probably his orginal one.

The 2047 Quartermaster Truck Company, part of the 1513 Quartermaster Battalion Mobile Aviation, was based at Ashdown Camp (Berkshire) from at least 6 May to 11 December 1944.
But it looks as if the company might have been split up before the end of this period as
Clarence WIlliams offence happened at Langres, France, on 11 November 1944.

Ashdown Camp was an Air Support Command base where Black GI units were based.
It is a Dutch-style house built in 1662 by William Craven, Earl, for Queen Elizabeth of Bohemia.
The house was badly damaged and left derelict after the war.
Its currently owned by the National Trust and open to the public.
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/ashdown-house

Warning: If anybody looks up Ashdown Camp do not confuse it with the WII re-enactment site just outside of Evesham.

Evan

ps: Sorry if use of "Negro" or "Black" upsets anybody, I know that the terms are not now "pc" but I am qouting official records.
Last edited by Saffron on Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed.

Post by Me and my boy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:23 am

Easylife wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:53 pm
Me and my boy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:15 pm

It’s a very Evocative story And I’m beginning to feel very sorry for him if he was wrongly convicted.
Wrongly convicted? Well it appears that he had intended to shoot and kill all four of his fellow soldiers. On the basis of the given facts so far, I'd agree that it was murder. Though at best these days it could have been manslaughter based on an unsound mind. x;
A great thought provoking find though. ::g

Apologise, I agree it is murder and he was convicted correctly for the taking of another’s life, from what I have read. I do feel though there may have been more to this background than we know of, from what has been read and published.
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Bargeman » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:59 am

This really has been very interesting, thanks to all concerned ::g

I live not far from Ashdown house, and it is funny, as there were lots of US military personnel and units based in this area, more than people realise, including a squadron of flying fortresses that I only found out about a couple of years ago.



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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Bors » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am

A Great bit of detective work by a couple of Members on this thread, It has to be mentioned, because I know when on occasions I start delving for this ,that, or the other on ID`s , it can be very time consuming with very little appreciation for the efforts it takes to spend your time doing it. (not that any thanks is obligatory by anyone though). ::g =D>

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by shaggybfc » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:38 am

Bors wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am
A Great bit of detective work by a couple of Members on this thread, It has to be mentioned, because I know when on occasions I start delving for this ,that, or the other on ID`s , it can be very time consuming with very little appreciation for the efforts it takes to spend your time doing it. (not that any thanks is obligatory by anyone though). ::g =D>
Agreed, there are some great detectives on this forum. I'm always amazed how they find the information - I think I must be using a different version of Google :)) :)) :))
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Me and my boy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:58 am

Bors wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am
A Great bit of detective work by a couple of Members on this thread, It has to be mentioned, because I know when on occasions I start delving for this ,that, or the other on ID`s , it can be very time consuming with very little appreciation for the efforts it takes to spend your time doing it. (not that any thanks is obligatory by anyone though). ::g =D>
I very much appreciate all efforts that people do put in. sometimes it’s hard to find the time to list finds let alone research them. Thank you all for the fantastic info given. I do try to thank members but only through the tick box. I should perhaps only post when I have time to fully respond to each and every response, that’s food for my thoughts. , but I like to share my finds as I know seeing others finds personally inspires me. 👍😊
Thanks again all
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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Saffron » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:48 pm

shaggybfc wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:38 am
Bors wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am
A Great bit of detective work by a couple of Members on this thread, It has to be mentioned, because I know when on occasions I start delving for this ,that, or the other on ID`s , it can be very time consuming with very little appreciation for the efforts it takes to spend your time doing it. (not that any thanks is obligatory by anyone though). ::g =D>
Agreed, there are some great detectives on this forum. I'm always amazed how they find the information - I think I must be using a different version of Google :)) :)) :))
Andi
Me and my boy wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:58 am
Responding to the same post by Bors.

I very much appreciate all efforts that people do put in. sometimes it’s hard to find the time to list finds let alone research them. Thank you all for the fantastic info given. I do try to thank members but only through the tick box. I should perhaps only post when I have time to fully respond to each and every response, that’s food for my thoughts. , but I like to share my finds as I know seeing others finds personally inspires me. 👍😊
Thanks again all

As Bors said this kind of research can be "very time consuming"!. But in my case I do it for 2 reasons, firstly because items like this appeal to me and I find the history behind them fascinating, secondly as bit of "pay back" to the forum for all the great bits that I get from it ... (I know if I see a coin its pointless me trying to get an ID because they all look the same to me and I know Allectus will have given a full ID before I have even found my copy of Spinks!). But this is where I have some expertise that others on here often do not.

Andi, I use the same version of Google as you do ... its just with years of experience of doing family history I know how to word the search to remove some of the masses of rubbish and narrow down the returned items.
Although they were no use in this case as he was American for British dog tags I have access to both Ancestry and The Genealogist family history websites.

Me and my boy, if you do not have time to list your finds then I think I should join you detecting!!. I am glad that you appreciate the information that we found out, it certainly was a most fascinating story and one that nobody would have expected when we first saw the dog tag.


I would like to thank Bibelot for the family relatives link he provided
https://familyrelatives.com
I only have UK not "World" access to Ancestry and The Genealogist and this site gives some useful oversees information for free (I have joined it!).

But above all a massive thanks to Easylife for his post about the Dishonourable Discharge as that is the one that really got this thread going!.
FYI: The more I think about it the more inclined I am to agree with him that the dog tag might have been bent double on purpose.

You can never justify murder (well maybe in rare cases!!) but I do have a certain sympathy for Clarence Williams. I wonder what happened to him eventually.

Evan

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Re: My favourite find for a while. Help needed. THIS THREAD IS WELL WORTH A READ

Post by Me and my boy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:07 pm

Thanks Evan for your kind words. It was a really interesting find for me and all the information sourced has been very moving. I’m pleased I found it and posted it as I would never managed anywhere near the amount of information found out and would have( as shown in my deleted post) got the wrong man for my research and gone off in the wrong direction.
Thanks again.
Ps my thoughts were off it being deliberately folded too as there’s no obvious plough damage etc, but why it was there where it was will probably always be a mystery.
I’ve decided I’m going to give it to the local history group with all the information found so far and they can decide amongst theirselves where it goes from there.
2019 hammies. = 133 (including quarters, halves and broken)
Saxon = 1( broken sceatta)
Celtic. = 1
Silver denarius = 6
Gold Roman = 0
Gold ring. = 0
Gold hammered .= 1😀

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