Recommendations for an auction valuation

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Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:13 pm

So today I finally got my valuation through from the British museum for the 8thC brooch I found over 2 years ago.

I never expected anything mad for it as it's in poor condition, but I thought it might have been a little higher.

For a bit of background, it's a pseudo penannular silver brooch with gold filigree. They've said it's one of fewer than a dozen brooches of such high decoration. An estimate of £850-1100 has been put on it, although I thought it would have been a little bit more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in it for the love of history and as a hobby; I'm more interested in seeing it on display than the valuation. But at the same time I don't want to be taken for a mug.

Would it be worth getting an independent valuation, or am I just being silly? If not, any recommendations on a particular auction house?

Cheers!
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Bors » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:21 pm

The condition does make a big difference. Myself I think its a fair valuation due to its condition.

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by fred » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:24 pm

Likewise and for the same reason I suspect that it is a very fair valuation. ::g
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 pm

ah well then, thanks for the feedback ::g

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Bargeman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:38 pm

That is a very nice thing, are they alligators with garnet eyes on each side of the brooch?



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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Bors » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Bargeman wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:38 pm
That is a very nice thing, are they alligators with garnet eyes on each side of the brooch?



BM [:)
I`d plumb for depicting serpents ,or dragons heads myself with Garnets for eyes.

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:19 pm

I'd say serpent or dragon as well, been suggested the eyes are millefiori/ red glass. Looking forward to seeing it cleaned.

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Easylife » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:37 pm

Without researching it sounds good to me. Well done on finding all of the bits. ::g
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:08 pm

Cheers easy life, I'm surprised I got all the pieces. Was a little bit scattered, the plough must have clipped it at some stage

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by f8met » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Its a £1000 more than you had yesterday for a few minutes working digging it out of the ground. And why do you think you are being mugged off? It is not as if the museum will sell it for more.
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Hairyhands » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Fair. I wouldn't pay that for it myself. It's a good prive

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:19 pm

f8met wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:50 pm
Its a £1000 more than you had yesterday for a few minutes working digging it out of the ground. And why do you think you are being mugged off? It is not as if the museum will sell it for more.
I'm aware of that, as I said I'm more interested seeing it on display. I have no idea of the value and want to ensure a fair price. Simple as

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:48 pm

Thank-you for sharing this with us. Ideally whoever values your item, really needs to be unaware of the BM valuation, as knowing what the BM have said may influence their opinion. Hope all goes well, and a lovely find may I add.
I would side with the opinion that the BM isnt trying to mug anyone, and they are acting in good faith, and with integrity.
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:58 pm

Cheers. I'd say I'll just let it run as is, the main thing which threw me was the valuer compared it to victorian brooches at one point which I thought was a little unfair. Ah well, I'll be happy enough any way!

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Bors » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:14 pm

I once found A Viking coin which I was told by the Museum was an Anlaf Guthfrithsson mule ,and was probably the first attempt of a halfpenny in value. It was a "first" of its kind ,and no other had ever been discovered.
However, it was badly corroded ,probably due to a weak silver mix, and because of its poor condition I was offered £1000 of which I accepted .
Initially Upon hearing what they said it was, I was ordering a Rolls Royce in my mind =)) but after hearing the offer and the reason for why they offered what they did for it , I accepted the decision.

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by f8met » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:35 pm

I would urge anyone to look at the treasure hunting magazine auction pages and look at the item and guess the value and compare that to the real world value. I actually would like to play that game with some back issues to highlight the what we think it is worth to reality. We would all like to think what we have is worth lots but in reality it is worth a lot less
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by f8met » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 pm

If an independent valuation came back and said £500 would you go back to the BM and say I would take less?
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by frogeye » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:04 am

That's a stunning artifact ::g very well found. Just a pity its not in one piece. A fair valuation ::g

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Mac91 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:27 am

f8met wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 pm
If an independent valuation came back and said £500 would you go back to the BM and say I would take less?
Obviously not. Comes across as a bit of a smart ass comment, not appreciated. The whole reason for this post is to get people's opinion on the valuation because I've no idea and haven't dealt went BM before. Fair evaluation would have been suffice

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by f8met » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:28 am

But it is not up to people here to decide what they think it should be worth. It is the official and a maybe an independent valuation that counts. We would all like something to be worth a lot more than it is. If someone here said they think it should be worth £2000, it counts for nothing. The valuation seems fair.
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by crldnll » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:42 am

If you're not in it for the money then surely it's not an issue. Just be happy that it's in the best hands it could be in, displayed and seen by your relatives for years to come. Even if someone does say it's worth more, and it's bought at auction by an anonymous bidder and shipped overseas... there has to be some weight on the decision that these things should stay in the UK.

Also be grateful the landowner is happy for you to have half the value.

A couple of my landowners donate their portion of proceeds from any treasure finds to a local charity. They also (quite rightly in my eyes) ask the finder for a small donation too. It amazes me how many finders reject and then their greed loses them the permission. A small donation goes a long way with landowners as it helps turn around the typical views they have on detectorists!

I have 2 hoards going through treasure which the museum want to acquire - yes I could do with a bit of cash, but I'll make a good donation to the charity to keep all on side. The joy of knowing they'll be properly conserved and hopefully displayed means more to me. I'll be able to bore the children for years to come!

Beautiful find! ::g

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by king of the swingers » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:55 am

Ive seen some unfair posts on here ;;z
Its easy for any of us to say its not about the money but to the farmer and his 50% it is about the money

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by liamnolan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:58 am

Valuation topics will often end in tears as there are polarised opinions. I remember posting on your find, came soon after the other similar brooch from Les also up North, beautiful item ::g viewtopic.php?f=121&t=90400&p=809975#p809975
one other option is to loan the item to the museum for them to have it on display, with a note attached with your name and date of discovery. That means that you still own the brooch and free to sell it later on if you wish. In the meantime its on display for the Nation to admire and at no cost to the taxpayer.
There are many items on display in museums in the same fashion and its one that I prefer myself.
Thanks for doing all the right things with the recording and careful cleansing, often not done.
Your brooch is an exquisite piece of Irish heritage being rescued from the plough and fertilisers, I will be mentioning both yours and Les's finds in forthcoming debates in Dublin with the archaeologists and politicians as examples of responsible detecting. Liam :;@
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by garrettoldboy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:08 am

hello, if i am right in thinking the BM have a panel of experts and each item is valued on their professional opinions, a very nice find Mac 91 i hope a local museum will be able to put on display,

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by littleboot » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:51 am

Disclaimer: let me make it clear....I have no idea of the value of this item or if the valuation is 'fair and reasonable'. In reality a value is what someone will pay. And that depends on a number of economic and social factors and can be different on different days, in different places, at different points of sale, and according to who is selling it.

Clearly f8net has strong views on this subject. But, no matter how often and differently expressed it doesn't mean they are correct. And that goes for my views (equally strong) I have no doubt. :D

Rant: Take the assertion that the museum wouldn't be selling it.
In reality Musuems regularly re-sell items they have acquired. I know this because I have close friends who work in them. They would not blench to sell an item that would yield a healthy profit and items at this level fit the bill perfectly.
There are many examples of items that have been acquired and then sold on for considerably more.

Back in the Day we were educated to respect the system....it was tantamount to Heresy to suggest ...to even think...that for example, Police could be bent, Civil Servants corrupt, Priests depraved, or sportsmen liable to match-fixing for profit. That went well. 8-| ( At the moment I am struggling with a dental problem caused by a dentist decades ago who mother trusted and who was afterwards found to be putting unnecessary fillings in mouths for profit.)
I am over it now...there are no sacred cows. No organizations which I put my absolute trust in to be fair, reasonable or honest. The BM is no exception. When there is money involved...be it hard cash or 'annual budgets' or people justifying their salary....then the likelihood is that someone in the process is going to be 'mugged off'. If money is involved its business...and business is like that. Its just that many people are not educated to be aware of it...or deliberately kept in the dark and fed Pap, more like.

Yes, of course condition is a factor in valuation.....most rigorously applied when there is a reasonable supply of comparable items available in better condition. However, if something is rare...be it a Saxon or Roman Helmet etc...the fact it is in bits is largely irrelevant.

Its a £1000 more than you had yesterday for a few minutes working digging it out of the ground.
I found this rather glib. And a tad offensive to be honest. It also kind of cuts through any argument that it is The Object that is being valued ...rather than some aspect of who and how it was acquired. Of course, that is sadly what happens all too often ...but it isn't compatible with any assertion that a valuation is fair. Quite the reverse.
Lord and Lady Muck find a box of treasures in their attic...with scant info of when and where it was acquired (interesting how if someone was Upper Crust they were 'antiquarians' but obviously if they are of the working classes they are naturally refered to as 'looters' who have no right to it.) So, with this passing as some kind of 'provenance' they get a valuation. Do you suggest they should be content with whatever value they are given because they didn't know they had it the day before and only had to have a root in the attic to find it? Of course not. Because such a view would be bound to encourage low valuations across the board. There are other examples I could furnish where people come across wealth, without any appreciable effort on their part whatsoever. In fact the making of money has very little relationship with time or effort expended. It is just yet another fib we are fed while we are young in order to produce the next generation of work-horses. That is why a carer will slave away for 12 months while a carpet bagging City bod will make twice as much in half an hour by pushing a few buttons. We like to think the class system is a thing of the past but it is very much alive and kicking. I get whiffs of it all the time, and the saddest thing to me is when people who are on the mucky end of it are duped into buying into it...or simply have got used to it and don't recognise it for what it is.

So. To sum up. The original poster is quite right...and sensible....to question the valuation. I suggest he now finds a place (or better still, places) where he can ask for informed opinion of its value on the open market. Rather than simply having responses which are calling into question and debating his decision to ask it.
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by Bors » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:20 am

I liked the above post so much I read it twice to fully absorb the content.
So much truth, and wise analogy, it really is good reading,especially on a Sunday morning straight after being totally depressed by watching the Andrew Marr programme on the BBC.

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by WVAM » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:26 am

Mac91,
I appreciate and understand your concern but I feel you are mixing two different things.

First, a valuation is the best considered opinion based on the object and the known market. It's coming from a very well known place and should satisfy all concerned.

Second, an auction estimate is based on opinion and the market and gives you a strong guide to the lower value of the item i.e. your fixed reserve. After that the sale price, which isn't a valuation but is the value to someone, is any one's guess and depends on many things.

The sale or auction side only becomes relevant if you sell. If you want the maximum return then use an international auction house e.g. Bonhams (others are available) but, it may be the last you ever see of the item on these shores.

Also keep in mind that a higher 'valuation' is going to cost you more with your landowner. And what do you do if the auction house says "the American market would pay £5K or more for this"? Is that now the valuation or just speculation - it all gets a little tricky when money is involved.

I'm often surprised at the relatively low sale (actualised) price of some historical items but you'll only know for sure when you put it up for sale. Until then......

Great find and lovely to see.

Chris

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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by stuartj » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:47 am

It seems a bit of a shame that a very straightforward and honest question seems to have garnered several "political" answers. Personally I don't have a mercenary interest in metal detecting however money is money, people on here have invested hundreds, if not thousands of pounds and countless hours into this hobby and the law (quite rightly in my opinion) makes provision for this.
Having dealt in antiques (as a sideline) for the last 20 year's I think they gave you a fair and reasonable valuation.
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by fred » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:47 am

I agree that there is more of a problem with valuing 'rare' objects but there are also often serious issues with condition too. An object in poor condition requiring extensive (and expensive) conservation is simply never going to achieve top dollar in the open market. Even when it has been restored it will still not achieve the same price as a similar object in original condition.

I know that all of the treasure cases that I have been through have provided well argued valuations that I have been able to check online. They have all been in the right commercial ballpark, even if I might have paid a bit more just to keep the item. In a few recent cases the value has actually been increased a bit at the award meetings anyway. If you want a shock just check how little 'run of the mill' late Roman gold solidii sell for, about four times the scrap value is pretty normal.

I do tend to either disclaim or donate my share, although I have noted that the farmers generally gratefully accept their part. :D
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Re: Recommendations for an auction valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:04 pm

I sold a posy ring for £1.800 to a London jeweller knowing full well that it would be in his shop window for £5,600 that afternoon, and it was. So the question is what was its value ... and that would be £1,800 to me, £3,800 to the jeweller, and £5,600 to the customer. Had I sold the ring through a Auction house I would have taken a £300 hit on my £1,800, leaving me with £1,500. So by spending £50 on a train ticket I made £300 on the deal (the jeweler paid my train fare).
So what is my point.. The value of an item often depends on the circumstances of the person buying/selling it..
The shop owner has a living to make, staff to pay, Hatton Garden rates, and even then it may well take years to sell..
The finder has zero expenses, and wants an "immediate cut" of the eventual sale price.
The buyer wants the enjoyment of strolling down Hatton Gardens and buying the best wedding band that money (no object) can buy....
Hope all that "true life" stuff helps put things into perspective ... ohh and from the BM valuation perspective they would have put £1,500 as the value.
So the value ranges between £1,500 and £5,600 for the same item.
edit ... and to the lucky bride ... the ring is priceless ::g ::g ::g l;.
Last edited by oldartefact on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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