Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by stubble hunter » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:05 pm

Wow ! I thought I might have the odd comment but may I say to everyone who responded... a big thank you for many words of wisdom and now my knowledge of buyers and sellers fees has been improved no end.
As I stated in my original post a local museum has expressed an interest in purchasing and it was always my desire that the find go there for all to see. The money side is secondary albeit in that all I was seeking was a 'fair value' and with little to compare it too then that has created more of a problem than I wished.
But many thanks all for some great feedback here. Truly the best forum in the land ! ::g
Cheers !
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by f8met » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:08 pm

It is very well banding numbers around for what people THINK things are worth when in reality they may not be worth near that.

Where is the large lump of Roman lead now that people THOUGHT was worth £60k?

It is possible that it could still be disclaimed and only then will it be possible to find a true market value at an auction. Personally for me it would be £400 I didn't have yesterday.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 pm

The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by f8met » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:35 pm

oldartefact wrote:The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.

There is a fee for the seller and a fee for the buyer. As has been said before, if the bid reaches £1800 and the hammer falls, hammer price, the buyer pays £1800 plus the auctioneers buyers fee, around the 25% mark and the seller gets £1800 minus the auctioneers sellers fee, can be around say 15%. Therefore the auction house gets a combined fee of 40% of the hammer price made up of the addition of the fee above £1800 and the subtraction of the hammer price from the seller.

£1800 + 25% = £ 2250 paid by the buyer.

£1800 - 15% = £ 1530 what the seller receives.

Auctioneer gets £720 for doing the work.

(simplified as no VAT in the equation, which is paid on the fees only).
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 am

f8met wrote:
oldartefact wrote:The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.

There is a fee for the seller and a fee for the buyer. As has been said before, if the bid reaches £1800 and the hammer falls, hammer price, the buyer pays £1800 plus the auctioneers buyers fee, around the 25% mark and the seller gets £1800 minus the auctioneers sellers fee, can be around say 15%. Therefore the auction house gets a combined fee of 40% of the hammer price made up of the addition of the fee above £1800 and the subtraction of the hammer price from the seller.

£1800 + 25% = £ 2250 paid by the buyer.

£1800 - 15% = £ 1530 what the seller receives.

Auctioneer gets £720 for doing the work.

(simplified as no VAT in the equation, which is paid on the fees only).
Yes ... You are right ... My view is that if the Auction declared a hammer price of £2250 and an Auctioneers fee of 33% (ie. £720) ... that many sellers would be put off. But doing it as they do, they effectively mask the fact that they are taking a relatively large premium, for relatively little effort.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Pastmember01 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 am

Why not place the piece with the local museum "on loan". The insurance value (not sale at auction value) would be the price to replace it and that needs to be the retail price for a specialist piece. Then, when money becomes the primary concern, it can be retrieved and sold on the open market. If the landowner wants a cut now then reach an agreement on value using the information provided by the BM and the 'auction costs' above and buy out the 50% - you hold the risk of what it will, or won't sell for in the future, you keep the piece, the museum gets to show it (and could cast a replica) and you may, or may not, have a little nest egg. Just depends whether on whether you want to invest £400-750.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Me and my boy » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:12 am

WVAM wrote:Why not place the piece with the local museum "on loan". The insurance value (not sale at auction value) would be the price to replace it and that needs to be the retail price for a specialist piece. Then, when money becomes the primary concern, it can be retrieved and sold on the open market. If the landowner wants a cut now then reach an agreement on value using the information provided by the BM and the 'auction costs' above and buy out the 50% - you hold the risk of what it will, or won't sell for in the future, you keep the piece, the museum gets to show it (and could cast a replica) and you may, or may not, have a little nest egg. Just depends whether on whether you want to invest £400-750.

Best option by far. ITS ONLY MONEY! We all need it but it causes more grief between people and friends than anything. Put it in local museum on loan, Pay farmer, or tell him your plans and hopefully he will do likewise and leave it there, both get free entry to visit it when you like, it's safer there than at home and no more discussions on it's worth. Lovely. And at a future date, when it's older and rarer it would be worth more than now! And This way no more forum members trying to describe the auction fee policy. LOVELY DAY TO ALL
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by stubble hunter » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:25 am

Many thanks "Meandmyboy" and ""Wvam" - I do like this option. But of course I could only go down this route if the BM disclaimed it. This does not appear to be the case with a a local museum expressing interest in acquring.. though whether they have the funds to do so remains to be seen.
Many thanks to "Oldartifact" and "F8met" for your valuable contributions. I learnt a lot there !
I will let you all know the final outcome.
Cheers !
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by littleboot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:10 am

That is a very lovely seal.

I think some of the wider implications of this valuation are being missed.

The spiel used to justify a lower valuation than the other seals they mention is basically a load of tosh. If the legend is difficult to read, how come they can read it? There doesn't look to be any even slightly significant damage to it to justify that comment.

Whether or not some people would be happy to accept £800 and see it in a museum is also losing sight of the bigger picture....I.E. the low valuations being given be the TVC and the way it erodes trust in the system.

We ordinary citizens are always made to feel greedy if we want the best financial deal for ourselves. Often by fellow ordinary citizens. Yet the powers that be who play on that notion are ever eager to profit from it. There is a healthy trade of these items after we have parted with them. And we wonder why the rich keep getting richer. 8-|
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Pastmember01 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:41 am

Unfortunately appraisers have to give what they consider an accurate description as their documents will be used to justify prices and authenticity. Imagine, if the BM said the seal was in superb condition and is then sold. The buyer, possibly overseas, receives it and says it is not as described e.g. it's good but not superb. Who carries the responsibility, costs and loss of reputation of putting everything back where it should be - the BM, the auction house, the seller?
Some of the coin specialists on here might want to chip in. The difference between an extra fine and uncirculated coin is difficult for most of us to recognise but it means a whole load of difference to the price. Get the documentation wrong and someone will be unhappy.

Let's hope the OP gets to a solution where they and the landowner are happy.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by jcmaloney » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:57 am

Interesting debate!
Remember the proviso in the treasure Act 1996 that it is a "willing seller & willing buyer"...eg: no "auction frenzy with multiple bidders" or the like. ::g

By the time you consider the comments from the provisional valuer etc its actually a very well reasoned provisional valuation that the TVC could increase if new information comes to light.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by fred » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:52 pm

WVAM wrote:Unfortunately appraisers have to give what they consider an accurate description as their documents will be used to justify prices and authenticity. Imagine, if the BM said the seal was in superb condition and is then sold. The buyer, possibly overseas, receives it and says it is not as described e.g. it's good but not superb. Who carries the responsibility, costs and loss of reputation of putting everything back where it should be - the BM, the auction house, the seller?
Some of the coin specialists on here might want to chip in. The difference between an extra fine and uncirculated coin is difficult for most of us to recognise but it means a whole load of difference to the price. Get the documentation wrong and someone will be unhappy.

Let's hope the OP gets to a solution where they and the landowner are happy.
As one who dabbles in such things I will happily second the warnings about condition. Sometimes when people post that a coin is 'like the day it was minted' or similar I often think that it must have been a damn bad day at that mint then because as far as I can see the thing would struggle to even be graded as being in a collectible condition. :D It is always nice to find older stuff but being buried for hundreds or even thousands of years rarely improves an items market value unless it is rare or unusual.

I don't think that the BM's estimate for this seal is actually that far out as it stands but the value could probably be increased a bit by some expert cleaning and conservation (which of course will not be cheap). It will also increase if you can link it to a real person, which does sometimes happen.

Still a very nice object to find and at least you should get a searchhead cover or two out of it if they can afford to buy it. ::g

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by coil » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Lovely seal best wishes to you whatever you decide ::g

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Mick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:29 pm

Quality find.

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