Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Pifukas » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:52 pm

oldartefact wrote:
alloverover wrote:
oldartefact wrote:Let's suppose an item sells for £1800 ... one needs to knock off about £400 for the buyers premium, then another £300 for the sellers fee... leaving the seller with £1,100 ... so lets say the BM offered £800 ... thats £400 each versus the £550 at auction ... (assuming a 50:50 split) ... not a massive difference.
18% sellers fee with timeline ( if you dont have a chat first) so it £100 rather than £300 ::g
and you need to look up what a buyers premium is OA ::g
AOO I am not one to blow my own trumpet, but would your views change if you knew that I have a Masters Degree in Applied Statistics??? We all have different talents ... mine is Statistics (no jokes please) :)) :)) :)) <:-P
I admit that I may be wrong ... but probably not on this one.
I allways thought that at auctions it goes like this:
Say I sell something for 1000£
So I should pay(say 18%sellers fee) - 180£ (I should get 820£ in my pocket).
Buyer pays (say 20% buyers premium) - 200£ (Total for buyer will be 1200£)
But I might be wrong as never sold anything...


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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:52 pm

I have no problem with being wrong ... my ID's prove that <:-P <:-P <:-P ... but I would love to hear why you think I am wrong ... Lets suppose that you have written a cheque out for £1800 for a particular item ... how much do you calculate the auction house will be taking in fees ... from you as well the seller... My M.Sc says its £609..,. [:) [:) [:) [:)
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by alloverover » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:55 pm

oldartefact wrote:
Think that you may have missed the point ... the cost to the seller is the sum of the selling commission and the Buyers premium..
Lets say you came to my office as a private seller ... I may offer you £1800 for an item... now if you refuse and go to auction, then the max I would be willing to pay is still £1800 ... this would include my buyers premium of £414 ... and after you have paid your selling commission you would be left with £1137...
Many people dont appreciate this ... and that it is why its often beneficial to go straight to the buyer ... and cut out all the fees to the Auction house.

:-O :-O :-O

Did you get tought that squirm at university OA :)

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by alloverover » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:56 pm

oldartefact wrote:I have no problem with being wrong ... my ID's prove that <:-P <:-P <:-P ... but I would love to hear why you think I am wrong ... Lets suppose that you have written a cheque out for £1800 for a particular item ... how much do you calculate the auction house will be taking in fees ... from you as well the seller... My M.Sc says its £609..,. [:) [:) [:) [:)
And you keep it going :D :D cheeky boy you are =))

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Pifkus wrote " I allways thought that at auctions it goes like this:
Say I sell something for 1000£
So I should pay(say 18%sellers fee) - 180£ (I should get 820£ in my pocket).
Buyer pays (say 20% buyers premium) - 200£ (Total for buyer will be 1200£)
But I might be wrong as never sold anything"

OA replied "You are absolutely right give or take a few quid ...
So you get £820 and the buyer pays £1200 and the Auction house takes nearly £400....
Had you gone to the buyer direct he/she may well have been happy to pay you £1200 ... meaning that you would be £400 out of pocket going to Auction ..."
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Oxgirl36 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:00 pm

oldartefact wrote:I have no problem with being wrong ... my ID's prove that <:-P <:-P <:-P ... but I would love to hear why you think I am wrong ... Lets suppose that you have written a cheque out for £1800 for a particular item ... how much do you calculate the auction house will be taking in fees ... from you as well the seller... My M.Sc says its £609..,. [:) [:) [:) [:)
If the hammer price is £1800 the buyer would pay £1800 plus 24% fees of £432 meaning they would write a check for £2232. So the buyer is willing to pay far more than the hammer price.

The seller would get £1800 minus the seller fee. Assuming it is 18% £344 so receiving £1566.

So, as it isn't going to auction, and assuming it is worth £1800, then the seller is £766 worse off than the £800 offer and the buyer is £1432 better off.

I've done this in my head so apologies if any figure is slightly out.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:01 pm

alloverover wrote:
oldartefact wrote:
Think that you may have missed the point ... the cost to the seller is the sum of the selling commission and the Buyers premium..
Lets say you came to my office as a private seller ... I may offer you £1800 for an item... now if you refuse and go to auction, then the max I would be willing to pay is still £1800 ... this would include my buyers premium of £414 ... and after you have paid your selling commission you would be left with £1137...
Many people dont appreciate this ... and that it is why its often beneficial to go straight to the buyer ... and cut out all the fees to the Auction house.

:-O :-O :-O

Did you get tought that squirm at university OA :)
I dont call £600+ squirming ...and it was Polytechnic!!! <:-P <:-P <:-P <:-P
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:09 pm

Oxgirl36 wrote:
oldartefact wrote:I have no problem with being wrong ... my ID's prove that <:-P <:-P <:-P ... but I would love to hear why you think I am wrong ... Lets suppose that you have written a cheque out for £1800 for a particular item ... how much do you calculate the auction house will be taking in fees ... from you as well the seller... My M.Sc says its £609..,. [:) [:) [:) [:)
If the hammer price is £1800 the buyer would pay £1800 plus 24% fees of £432 meaning they would write a check for £2232. So the buyer is willing to pay far more than the hammer price.

The seller would get £1800 minus the seller fee. Assuming it is 18% £344 so receiving £1566.

So, as it isn't going to auction, and assuming it is worth £1800, then the seller is £766 worse off than the £800 offer and the buyer is £1432 better off.

I've done this in my head so apologies if any figure is slightly out.

To help clarify the situation ...
lets suppose the buyer was only willing to write a cheque out for £1800 ...
That would imply that he/she would only bid upto £1452... as the auction house would ask for £348 Buyers Commission ... so if the buyer bid up to £1452 ... the seller would have to pay £261 on the £1452 hammer price ... leaving £1190 for the seller. The buyers pays £1800 .. the seller gets £1190 ... and the Auction house gets the £610 difference. Had the seller gone direct to the buyer he might have negotiated a price of £1800 ... hence the seller would be £610 out of pocket going to the Auction.

OG in your above example the item is worth not £1800 but £2232 ... the worth of the item being determined by the size of the cheque the buyer is willing to write. When Buyers bid for items they value the item at the hammer price + any commission they have to pay, whereas the seller values the item as the hammer price minus any sellers fee ...
Last edited by oldartefact on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by alloverover » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:15 pm

oldartefact wrote:
Oxgirl36 wrote:
oldartefact wrote:I have no problem with being wrong ... my ID's prove that <:-P <:-P <:-P ... but I would love to hear why you think I am wrong ... Lets suppose that you have written a cheque out for £1800 for a particular item ... how much do you calculate the auction house will be taking in fees ... from you as well the seller... My M.Sc says its £609..,. [:) [:) [:) [:)
If the hammer price is £1800 the buyer would pay £1800 plus 24% fees of £432 meaning they would write a check for £2232. So the buyer is willing to pay far more than the hammer price.

The seller would get £1800 minus the seller fee. Assuming it is 18% £344 so receiving £1566.

So, as it isn't going to auction, and assuming it is worth £1800, then the seller is £766 worse off than the £800 offer and the buyer is £1432 better off.

I've done this in my head so apologies if any figure is slightly out.

To help clarify the situation ...
lets suppose the buyer was only willing to write a cheque out for £1800 ...
That would imply that he/she would only bid upto £1452... as the auction house would ask for £348 Buyers Commission ... so if the buyer bid up to £1452 ... the seller would have to pay £261 on the £1452 hammer price ... leaving £1190 for the seller. The buyers pays £1800 .. the seller gets £1190 ... and the Auction house gets the £610 difference. Had the seller gone direct to the buyer he might have negotiated a price of £1800 ... hence the seller would be £610 out of pocket going to the Auction.
What a lovely day we would be having if we could always go straight to the seller who was willing topay the highest price l;. l;. l;.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:22 pm

AOO wrote "What a lovely day we would be having if we could always go straight to the seller who was willing topay the highest price l;. l;. l;"

I totally agree ... for certain specialist items it can be done.
At the end of the day the value of an item at Auction is the amount a willing buyer is prepared to pay for it ... and that would obviously include any commission that he/she has to pay.
That said I think the BM would look at the hammer price when determining their valuation... but the actual value to the seller would be the hammer price minus the selling fee. If i am correct then the BM's use of hammer prices as a guide to valuation would be a fair way of doing it.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by stubble hunter » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:05 pm

Wow ! I thought I might have the odd comment but may I say to everyone who responded... a big thank you for many words of wisdom and now my knowledge of buyers and sellers fees has been improved no end.
As I stated in my original post a local museum has expressed an interest in purchasing and it was always my desire that the find go there for all to see. The money side is secondary albeit in that all I was seeking was a 'fair value' and with little to compare it too then that has created more of a problem than I wished.
But many thanks all for some great feedback here. Truly the best forum in the land ! ::g
Cheers !
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by f8met » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:08 pm

It is very well banding numbers around for what people THINK things are worth when in reality they may not be worth near that.

Where is the large lump of Roman lead now that people THOUGHT was worth £60k?

It is possible that it could still be disclaimed and only then will it be possible to find a true market value at an auction. Personally for me it would be £400 I didn't have yesterday.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 pm

The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by f8met » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:35 pm

oldartefact wrote:The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.

There is a fee for the seller and a fee for the buyer. As has been said before, if the bid reaches £1800 and the hammer falls, hammer price, the buyer pays £1800 plus the auctioneers buyers fee, around the 25% mark and the seller gets £1800 minus the auctioneers sellers fee, can be around say 15%. Therefore the auction house gets a combined fee of 40% of the hammer price made up of the addition of the fee above £1800 and the subtraction of the hammer price from the seller.

£1800 + 25% = £ 2250 paid by the buyer.

£1800 - 15% = £ 1530 what the seller receives.

Auctioneer gets £720 for doing the work.

(simplified as no VAT in the equation, which is paid on the fees only).
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by oldartefact » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 am

f8met wrote:
oldartefact wrote:The simplest possible way to look at all of this ... ,to remove the smoke and mirrors introduced by the Auction process, is this

After the auction the buyer Writes a cheque for £X to the Auction House
Auction house transfer £Y to their own account
and the Auction house then sends the remainder £Z to the seller.

Typically if a buyer writes a cheque out for £1800
then the Auction house takes £600
and the seller gets £1200

All talk of hammer price and % of this, % of that, and % of the other, is arguably just to smoke screen the fact that £600 is being taken out of the equation.

If Auction houses were to declare £1800 to be the hammer price ... ... leaving only £1200 for the seller, possibly more people would think twice before going to Auction...

As it is they declare a hammer price of £1,400 which effectively confuses how much is actually paid by the buyer and how much is actually received by the seller.

There is a fee for the seller and a fee for the buyer. As has been said before, if the bid reaches £1800 and the hammer falls, hammer price, the buyer pays £1800 plus the auctioneers buyers fee, around the 25% mark and the seller gets £1800 minus the auctioneers sellers fee, can be around say 15%. Therefore the auction house gets a combined fee of 40% of the hammer price made up of the addition of the fee above £1800 and the subtraction of the hammer price from the seller.

£1800 + 25% = £ 2250 paid by the buyer.

£1800 - 15% = £ 1530 what the seller receives.

Auctioneer gets £720 for doing the work.

(simplified as no VAT in the equation, which is paid on the fees only).
Yes ... You are right ... My view is that if the Auction declared a hammer price of £2250 and an Auctioneers fee of 33% (ie. £720) ... that many sellers would be put off. But doing it as they do, they effectively mask the fact that they are taking a relatively large premium, for relatively little effort.
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Pastmember01 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 am

Why not place the piece with the local museum "on loan". The insurance value (not sale at auction value) would be the price to replace it and that needs to be the retail price for a specialist piece. Then, when money becomes the primary concern, it can be retrieved and sold on the open market. If the landowner wants a cut now then reach an agreement on value using the information provided by the BM and the 'auction costs' above and buy out the 50% - you hold the risk of what it will, or won't sell for in the future, you keep the piece, the museum gets to show it (and could cast a replica) and you may, or may not, have a little nest egg. Just depends whether on whether you want to invest £400-750.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Me and my boy » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:12 am

WVAM wrote:Why not place the piece with the local museum "on loan". The insurance value (not sale at auction value) would be the price to replace it and that needs to be the retail price for a specialist piece. Then, when money becomes the primary concern, it can be retrieved and sold on the open market. If the landowner wants a cut now then reach an agreement on value using the information provided by the BM and the 'auction costs' above and buy out the 50% - you hold the risk of what it will, or won't sell for in the future, you keep the piece, the museum gets to show it (and could cast a replica) and you may, or may not, have a little nest egg. Just depends whether on whether you want to invest £400-750.

Best option by far. ITS ONLY MONEY! We all need it but it causes more grief between people and friends than anything. Put it in local museum on loan, Pay farmer, or tell him your plans and hopefully he will do likewise and leave it there, both get free entry to visit it when you like, it's safer there than at home and no more discussions on it's worth. Lovely. And at a future date, when it's older and rarer it would be worth more than now! And This way no more forum members trying to describe the auction fee policy. LOVELY DAY TO ALL
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by stubble hunter » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:25 am

Many thanks "Meandmyboy" and ""Wvam" - I do like this option. But of course I could only go down this route if the BM disclaimed it. This does not appear to be the case with a a local museum expressing interest in acquring.. though whether they have the funds to do so remains to be seen.
Many thanks to "Oldartifact" and "F8met" for your valuable contributions. I learnt a lot there !
I will let you all know the final outcome.
Cheers !
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by littleboot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:10 am

That is a very lovely seal.

I think some of the wider implications of this valuation are being missed.

The spiel used to justify a lower valuation than the other seals they mention is basically a load of tosh. If the legend is difficult to read, how come they can read it? There doesn't look to be any even slightly significant damage to it to justify that comment.

Whether or not some people would be happy to accept £800 and see it in a museum is also losing sight of the bigger picture....I.E. the low valuations being given be the TVC and the way it erodes trust in the system.

We ordinary citizens are always made to feel greedy if we want the best financial deal for ourselves. Often by fellow ordinary citizens. Yet the powers that be who play on that notion are ever eager to profit from it. There is a healthy trade of these items after we have parted with them. And we wonder why the rich keep getting richer. 8-|
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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Pastmember01 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:41 am

Unfortunately appraisers have to give what they consider an accurate description as their documents will be used to justify prices and authenticity. Imagine, if the BM said the seal was in superb condition and is then sold. The buyer, possibly overseas, receives it and says it is not as described e.g. it's good but not superb. Who carries the responsibility, costs and loss of reputation of putting everything back where it should be - the BM, the auction house, the seller?
Some of the coin specialists on here might want to chip in. The difference between an extra fine and uncirculated coin is difficult for most of us to recognise but it means a whole load of difference to the price. Get the documentation wrong and someone will be unhappy.

Let's hope the OP gets to a solution where they and the landowner are happy.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by jcmaloney » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:57 am

Interesting debate!
Remember the proviso in the treasure Act 1996 that it is a "willing seller & willing buyer"...eg: no "auction frenzy with multiple bidders" or the like. ::g

By the time you consider the comments from the provisional valuer etc its actually a very well reasoned provisional valuation that the TVC could increase if new information comes to light.

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by fred » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:52 pm

WVAM wrote:Unfortunately appraisers have to give what they consider an accurate description as their documents will be used to justify prices and authenticity. Imagine, if the BM said the seal was in superb condition and is then sold. The buyer, possibly overseas, receives it and says it is not as described e.g. it's good but not superb. Who carries the responsibility, costs and loss of reputation of putting everything back where it should be - the BM, the auction house, the seller?
Some of the coin specialists on here might want to chip in. The difference between an extra fine and uncirculated coin is difficult for most of us to recognise but it means a whole load of difference to the price. Get the documentation wrong and someone will be unhappy.

Let's hope the OP gets to a solution where they and the landowner are happy.
As one who dabbles in such things I will happily second the warnings about condition. Sometimes when people post that a coin is 'like the day it was minted' or similar I often think that it must have been a damn bad day at that mint then because as far as I can see the thing would struggle to even be graded as being in a collectible condition. :D It is always nice to find older stuff but being buried for hundreds or even thousands of years rarely improves an items market value unless it is rare or unusual.

I don't think that the BM's estimate for this seal is actually that far out as it stands but the value could probably be increased a bit by some expert cleaning and conservation (which of course will not be cheap). It will also increase if you can link it to a real person, which does sometimes happen.

Still a very nice object to find and at least you should get a searchhead cover or two out of it if they can afford to buy it. ::g

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by coil » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Lovely seal best wishes to you whatever you decide ::g

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Re: Silver Seal matrix BM provisional valuation

Post by Mick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:29 pm

Quality find.

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