New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

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Jungle
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New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Wed May 17, 2017 5:18 pm

As a result of the two resent "not treasure" verdicts in Suffolk of silver and gold pierced coins, the advice on the PAS website has been updated with examples of coins submitted as treasure (two of which were declared, the 3rd does not say) which the FLO's may use as "prima facie case" examples at inquest.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Steve_T » Wed May 17, 2017 7:14 pm

Jungle

An interesting post, just read it on the PAS. I have 2 silver coins that fit that criteria, wonder if they will retrospectively be declared as treasure, they are recorded and in my possession.

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by fred » Wed May 17, 2017 7:30 pm

As happened in Suffolk the Coroner does not have to accept advice. ::g

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Thu May 18, 2017 6:55 pm

That's my silver Roman. ::g
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Thu May 18, 2017 11:18 pm

f8met wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 6:55 pm
That's my silver Roman. ::g
Was it declared treasure and end up in your local museum?
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Stillburning » Fri May 19, 2017 7:27 am

Just in case anyone missed it first time and as very relavent to this thread this is the thread relating to the pierced Roman silver found by f8met viewtopic.php?f=120&t=80986&start=20
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Fri May 19, 2017 6:56 pm

Yes it is just waiting to be delivered to the museum. I have my certificate from the Department of Culture, Media and Sport as myself and the landowner donated it. The coroner made the decision based on the information given by the BM.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by JBM » Fri May 19, 2017 7:23 pm

This will throw the cat among the pigeons.

For many years a coin adapted/modified for another purpose was not allowed to be entered into competitions as a coin.

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Last edited by JBM on Tue May 23, 2017 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Cromwell » Fri May 19, 2017 9:25 pm

Surely the FLO has to comply with laws re coinage not change the rules when it comes to when a museum wants a piece. This is where the system let's all down.

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Mon May 22, 2017 11:53 pm

Cromwell wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:25 pm
Surely the FLO has to comply with laws re coinage not change the rules when it comes to when a museum wants a piece. This is where the system let's all down.
Not quite sure I follow? If it has been modified then it can't be classed as a coin. I am sure the case where the museum wanted it had no bearing on whether it should be declared treasure. If the stipulation is that if it is pierced and is obvious that it has been done to make it into jewellery then it becomes an object not an coin.

There are some coins that are pierced to remove from circulation (a lot of commonwealth seem to be pierced) and Roman coins that have been nailed to structures and these "may" fall outside of the definition. Some gold coins are pierced as touch pieces so would also probably fall outside of the definition but that could be a grey area as they were worn as charms.

Seems on this occasion it was the coroner who didn't seem to follow the guidelines, not the FLO / BM.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Koala » Tue May 23, 2017 12:24 am

f8met wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 11:53 pm
Cromwell wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:25 pm
Surely the FLO has to comply with laws re coinage not change the rules when it comes to when a museum wants a piece. This is where the system let's all down.
Not quite sure I follow? If it has been modified then it can't be classed as a coin. I am sure the case where the museum wanted it had no bearing on whether it should be declared treasure. If the stipulation is that if it is pierced and is obvious that it has been done to make it into jewellery then it becomes an object not an coin.

There are some coins that are pierced to remove from circulation (a lot of commonwealth seem to be pierced) and Roman coins that have been nailed to structures and these "may" fall outside of the definition. Some gold coins are pierced as touch pieces so would also probably fall outside of the definition but that could be a grey area as they were worn as charms.

Seems on this occasion it was the coroner who didn't seem to follow the guidelines, not the FLO / BM.
Most must fall into a grey area

Pierced keeps the weight the same to keep its value

Drilled removes metal.


I believe soldiers and travellers often pierced coin and sew them into their clothing.
Also a coin nailed above a front door
Or strung together like an early money belt.

As I see it most drilled will be jewellery
And most pierced will be functional

But obviously there will be a cross over


Also I could be way off the mark

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Tue May 23, 2017 10:28 am

How can you tell if it has been pierced or drilled? The weight could be less due to clipping.

The orientation would be more significant.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Koala » Tue May 23, 2017 11:50 am

Pieced dips down on the front side and a large ridge of metal on the other side
ancient holed

These are drilled. Fairly even ridge both sides and no dip down at the front
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Tue May 23, 2017 1:31 pm

f8met wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 11:53 pm
Cromwell wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:25 pm
Surely the FLO has to comply with laws re coinage not change the rules when it comes to when a museum wants a piece. This is where the system let's all down.
Not quite sure I follow? If it has been modified then it can't be classed as a coin. I am sure the case where the museum wanted it had no bearing on whether it should be declared treasure. If the stipulation is that if it is pierced and is obvious that it has been done to make it into jewellery then it becomes an object not an coin.

There are some coins that are pierced to remove from circulation (a lot of commonwealth seem to be pierced) and Roman coins that have been nailed to structures and these "may" fall outside of the definition. Some gold coins are pierced as touch pieces so would also probably fall outside of the definition but that could be a grey area as they were worn as charms.

Seems on this occasion it was the coroner who didn't seem to follow the guidelines, not the FLO / BM.
It just had a hole, no added suspension loop so it could be "spent" like hack silver. If Museums don't want them, they are "returned to finder" and there is no inquest. The old FLO advice was to put holed coin through inquest, however better condition examples have been returned to finder (of more common coins) which suggested selection was based on the coin and the Treasure act does not apply to single coins. I was not asked to donate although BM has asked for a roman copper-which was donated.

The independent coroner makes a decision on evidence/argument at the inquest referring to the law for guidance. The FLO's/BM have there own interpretation of the law which has been updated.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 pm

My coin was wanted by the museum because it had a hole in it and not because it was a coin. It wasn't the British Museum and it wasn't because it was a rare coin but because it was a roman coin made into a piece of jewellery. It is more obvious from the orientation that it was being worn decoratively.

Image

Image

The interpretation of the law is any object made of silver or gold etc and as it has a hole in it, it could potentially become an object and that is the discussion that the BM / FLO puts forward to advise the coroner to adopt. If the coroner does not understand the argument put forward by the FLO then it is they who are interpreting the law incorrectly. The argument should have been clear that it should not be considered as a coin but an object. This is what happened at my inquest as the coroner read out the report and agreed with its findings.

I think all we are doing is seeing both sides of the coin here and we may have to agree to disagree.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Wed May 24, 2017 5:47 pm

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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Thu May 25, 2017 10:15 am

Just a question, if it had been a non-valuable bog standard silver coin like mine, would there have still been a challenge? Was it challenged due to it being rare or challenged the set a precedent that no holed coin should be treasure?
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Thu May 25, 2017 2:27 pm

Yes. The circumstances of the find have great sentimental value.
No. Being rare makes it less likely for me to retain.
No. Although the debate and result proves an grey area exists which can be debated at each inquest if needed. Which is not helpful to finders or FLO's(Treasure dept).

I wonder what BM's response would be to those questions substituting "claimed" for "Challenge"

We'll see in next months "The Searcher" what the Treasure Depart has to say about it, they have written a letter. Perhaps there will be less grey?
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by Jungle » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:04 pm

The BM is not in a position to acquire so I guess if it had been declared they would have declined the option to purchase rather than let it go to the TVC.
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Re: New guidance to FLO's on Pierced coins

Post by f8met » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:04 am

Not necessarily. If it was treasure then they may have had a different funding pot to dip into. I don't know for sure but they may have a general budget for acquiring "standard" finds and then a treasure pot to help purchase the treasure finds.
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