Vague Locating Ability

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Vague Locating Ability

Post by KernowViking » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:53 am

Evening/morning all!


Having been out with the 400i for about 20 hours total, I have noticed that it is rather 'vague'.


I can't think of a straight forward way to explain this, so here goes:

•I'm walking along, 1 left to right swing just under a second (ish).
•I pick up a signal.
•I wave the coil back over the area and use the built in pin-pointer to reign in on the location.
•Object still out of reach of handheld pinpointer.
•So I dig a flap, about 9 inches round, going under the roots maybe 3 inches deep.
•I wave the coil over the hole and it's gone 'iffy'.
•I check the clod/flap with the pin-pointer to find nothing.
• I dig deeper, nothing
• I dig the hole wider to find the object 6 inches in a completely different direction to what was suggested by the machine.

Now I know it's not going to say "There you are, Rob. Dig 172mm at a 94° angle to the ground and you'll find an M8 bolt"; but I would expect it to aid me in being able to dig more accurately, so as not to ruin the pasture.

Garrett suggest that the "centre focus" of the pinpointer is inline with a certain gap in the coil. So far I've agreed that yes, it is inline with a certain gap, but also a foot to left, or 6 inches in front, or upside down behind my left boot...

Is it something I'm doing wrong, or has anyone else found themselves in this situation?


Cheers all

Rob


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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by Easylife » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:31 am

This phenomenon is not uncommon with most detectors from time to time. It seems to be caused by the target laying in a certain orientation and also the effect of other metal close to it.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by thefiggis » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:08 am

It happens from time to time for everybody but if it's happening on a regular basis I'd do a couple of tests with it. It doesn't happen with my 400i (well, it does but it's usually down to me being a numpty).
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by sweepstick47 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:15 am

My suggestion would be:- On receiving a target indication, lower the sensitivity (without losing the target signal and recheck the target response. That should produce the most accurate target location indication. This was the favoured method of locating targets accurately back in the Dark Ages (1970s) 8-| Hope it works for you ::g Regards ss47
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by Rhumours » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:25 am

No expert Rob ... far greater minds here but things I've noticed with my garret

Exactly as described by you. But I've worked out how to make it better. When you finally find something and you are sweeping back and forth .... to pinpoint better without using pinpoint function ... speed up the swing by a lot. Make it a really fast swing and not very far. Say 6 inches in either direction over taget. Two passes per second. When you are fairly sure .... step round it and go again at dame speed. Making a cross of swings. Keep doing that till your sure. It will often alter signal as it is at a different orientation ... if you're doing it right the depth appear to get shallower. The faster you go the more accurate it appears to be.

When I've used pinpoint function it needs to be away from object else it ghosts the signal to lthe side of where it actually is. So I don't need it now. After doing this for a few days I found I could detect the shape and orientation in the ground.

Also the flap open signal changing is from my experience totally normal ... even vanishing. If it goes from the hole and isn't inn the flap when you test it ... it means it's small and in the flap. In fact it's often a small wire which said was 20 cms down but was in fact 1cm down. If it's anything good ... once the flap is up it will get better and clearer and even changes from maybe iron to certainly iron.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by mowdie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:05 am

Hi Rob,

Thanks for this post. I experienced the same phenomenon on Sunday when I was out. Signal was there then it wasn't. Couldn't find the target on two of the signals when I dug them. I like Rhumours explanation that the target might be on or near the surface and when the plug is dug, it places more soil between the target and the coil or pinpointer. Certainly one I will remember for the future. I find the pinpoint mode on the 300i isnt too accurate either as I have always dug targets with plenty of margin to find that the target is in the side of the hole anyway. I think you and I should club together and get a JCB, plug would definitely be big enough then. I'm thinking of going down to a smaller coil to get more accuracy on the targets, although to be fair all I'm digging at the moment is iron so a magnet on a string would probably be better for me.

Good luck in finding the solution.

Kindest regards

Mowdie

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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by SuperRed » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:14 am

I actually find the pinpoint function reasonably accurate Rob, but I do tend to use the method that Rhumours describes above... a good account. Small pieces of foil or the dreaded air gun pellets in the flap are a pain too.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by Dave The Slave » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:30 pm

Hi Rob,
Noticed very similar problems and am still not convinced of the exact accuracy on the coil but the advice of Rhumours of swishing quickly over the target spot does work and is virtually spot on. Have done that for around 18 months and this is the first reply I have seen that someone else does the same.
Don`t tend to use the pinpoint facility too much as I believe it drains the batteries.
When you use pinpoint are you using the graphics or sound or both. I tend to get maximum graphic and can then adjust to get pinpoint to get maximum sound as sound gives maximum accuracy.
Have had holes where I could not find anything after widening and going deeper. One signal on the beach this week was actually the tiniest find I have ever had. Dry sand target out in small spoil, handful of sand, slowly dropping through nothing, did this at least 5 times. Literally looking at 100 ml of sand grain by grain and there was a tiny copper disc with a diameter of just under 2mm and light as a feather, so it could be , some of my missed targets could be that tiny.
Good Luck ::g
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by brianc » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:49 pm

As already said, the size of the object and it's orientation play a big part when pin pointing.

I have only used my new detector once in the field so I am by no means a master of the machine.

On my first outing, I dug a good number of holes where the object proved totally illusive. Very frustrating if not to mention hard work when digging on a hot day.

Unfortunately, this can happen on a regular basis and I found that I can get lazy after a couple of 'no shows' so the subsequent holes got filled in after a couple of further scrapes if nothing hits me straight in the face.

The fast cross method (ie: X marks the spot) does work in helping to pin point a find and I always use this in preference to the detectors pin point feature. This method works on all detectors and is a practical rule of thumb for all levels of experience and standard of detector.

I reckon that getting to know your detector well and being familiar with it's hot spots and the tones is the way forward.

Practice makes perfect, so dig everything and take frustration on the chin while you gain confidence to master your equipment and the environment.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by KernowViking » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:22 pm

Dave The Slave wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:30 pm
Hi Rob,
Noticed very similar problems and am still not convinced of the exact accuracy on the coil but the advice of Rhumours of swishing quickly over the target spot does work and is virtually spot on. Have done that for around 18 months and this is the first reply I have seen that someone else does the same.
Don`t tend to use the pinpoint facility too much as I believe it drains the batteries.
When you use pinpoint are you using the graphics or sound or both. I tend to get maximum graphic and can then adjust to get pinpoint to get maximum sound as sound gives maximum accuracy.
Have had holes where I could not find anything after widening and going deeper. One signal on the beach this week was actually the tiniest find I have ever had. Dry sand target out in small spoil, handful of sand, slowly dropping through nothing, did this at least 5 times. Literally looking at 100 ml of sand grain by grain and there was a tiny copper disc with a diameter of just under 2mm and light as a feather, so it could be , some of my missed targets could be that tiny.
Good Luck ::g
Dave.

I use both. I've found using the graphics it'll give the 'highest' reading in multiple locations, but the sound is usually only clearest on one of them.






Thank you all for the tips and advice.


As you suggested Rhumours, I will try that technique next time I'm out (saturday if the forecast stops chuffin changing!)

I have used a similar technique before when a target has 'vanished'. I'll be swinging over it, find a good signal, then lose it when I try to narrow down on it. So i'll step round 90° and as if by magic it'll reappear.


I'll try to use this technique every target for a while to get a hang of things. As I said, i've only been going maybe 20-30 hours so still getting to grips with it all!

Once in the hole though, the pin pointer really does help, provided the target is no further than an inch or so from the tip!
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by KernowViking » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:24 pm

Rhumours wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:25 am
No expert Rob ... far greater minds here but things I've noticed with my garret

Exactly as described by you. But I've worked out how to make it better. When you finally find something and you are sweeping back and forth .... to pinpoint better without using pinpoint function ... speed up the swing by a lot. Make it a really fast swing and not very far. Say 6 inches in either direction over taget. Two passes per second. When you are fairly sure .... step round it and go again at dame speed. Making a cross of swings. Keep doing that till your sure. It will often alter signal as it is at a different orientation ... if you're doing it right the depth appear to get shallower. The faster you go the more accurate it appears to be.

When I've used pinpoint function it needs to be away from object else it ghosts the signal to lthe side of where it actually is. So I don't need it now. After doing this for a few days I found I could detect the shape and orientation in the ground.

Also the flap open signal changing is from my experience totally normal ... even vanishing. If it goes from the hole and isn't inn the flap when you test it ... it means it's small and in the flap. In fact it's often a small wire which said was 20 cms down but was in fact 1cm down. If it's anything good ... once the flap is up it will get better and clearer and even changes from maybe iron to certainly iron.
Just to clarify...

The 'fast cross' is to be done in standard mode, or while pinpointing?

Managed to swindle the afternoon off work tomorrow ::g
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by Rhumours » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Standard mode Rob. You don't touch the pinpointed button at all. Just remember to speed it up ... while your doing it pick a spot on the grass where you think it's indicating .... then when you move round it 90 degrees ... keep your eye on that spot. After a bit you can tell if it's a horse shoe ... double bong .... or a nail .... or if it makes a lot of erratic noise it's either a bent nail or several small ones. I found watching this video from 8 minutes in very helpful to be honest. Lots of subtle things he's doing. Lol .... American but has been detecting for years .... but it helped a lot in the beginning.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by stjimmy1980 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:53 pm

I have used my 400i for 50 ish hours and have found the pinpointing pretty spot on, my technique is as follows. coil virtually touching the ground with a swing of about 1m/ second, once I pick up a target I will give a much shorter side to side swing, I then turn 90 degrees and keep with the shorter swings. if it's a target I decide to dig I'll move the coil about 2 feet away from my intended dig point and press the pinpoint button then move slowly in to my target area, the point I have found accurate is where the shaft meets the coil. I will listen and look at the pinpoint meter to see where the highest reading is , normally doing a + shape to get a more precise point. I have many times done the above to then dig out my intended target and have it "disappear " the usual reason for this for me is deep iron. I discrim up to 40 so it may give a good tone until I dig out the first spade full the the machine realises it's iron so I get no sound.
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by roamingrob » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:36 am

A lot of advice above one thing l do, and do not think it's been said but l may have missed it. Is once you have a two way signal turn 90 deg to it and swing over it again you can visually draw an x on the ground, as said orientation, and other things do come into play but not all the time.
Hope this helps
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by KernowViking » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:38 am

Again thank you all for the advice. It would seem I'm only doing half a job. The only time I do a cross is when I'm getting an iffy single, so I change the direction of attack.


It's been raining since about 2am and is supposed to stop around 10, so hopefully the pasture will have softened a bit by this afternoon!
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by KernowViking » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:14 am

So i headed out for a good few hours this afternoon, and I must say, i tried your advice, the fast short swings, the cross (some I did a star due to losing the signal after 90°) and I did spend a bit of time with the iron audio on, just to hear the crackle, and it made life a lot easier.


Hardly used the pinpointer function, but when I did I compared it to the cross swing to see where my centre of accuracy is, and it is just slightly in front of the coil bolt.


9/10 it was bang on, lift a grass flap and there something was basically looking at me.

Other times it was ever so slightly to one side of the hole, this was usually chunky iron.


So besides the deep iron throwing me off, i think I'm one step closer to figuring out the machine!


Cheers all

Rob
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Re: Vague Locating Ability

Post by sweepstick47 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Every little learnt is progress toward fully understanding the machine ::g Regards ss47
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