Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

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detectorman5050
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Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by detectorman5050 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:33 pm

Hi

I got a Nel Tornado second hand off Ebay for my Ace 250. Had it out a few times and thought it was 'ok' but I am not totally converted yet.

I just did a test with the Ace 250 lying flat on a table, and swung a new pound coin horizontally in front of the centre of the stock coil, and then compared it to the NEL coil.

I've worked out I'm only getting approximately 2.36 inches more depth when testing the NEL coil with the pound coin. That's an increase of approximately 26%.

Is this what I should be expecting perfomance wise from a Nel Tornado?

Thanks in advance.


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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by sweepstick47 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:16 am

I'm afraid that such a comparison under the conditions stated are unlikely to provide you with a meaningful answer. Simply put, if you're expecting 'some' semblance of a comparison, it has to be done in the environment that you're going to be searching. There are too many sources of metallic or magnetic influence in the home for such a test.

I doubt if one pound coins will be your preferred quarry so why not use something more appropriate - my suggestion would be a hammered penny. Consistency in the setting-up of your machine in the field is an important factor, as is accuracy of the ground balancing procedure.

All I would say, is don't get too hung-up about gaining more depth because use of a larger coil produces negatives as well as positives to contend with. Check through previous posts on the subject for more info, it has been discussed many times before. Good luck. ::g Regards ss47
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by detectorman5050 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:37 am

Hi Sweepstick

Yes, fair point, there will be lots of interference in the house. However, I was thinking that since both coils will be subject to the same level of interference, does that mean that there is some validity to my test?

You mention testing on a hammered coin, I'm afraid I've not come across one of those yet. I detect mainly on beaches, and of course modern coins are often in abundance.

Even with all that interference flying about I tested some more modern coins:

Tornado

2p 10.62 inches
1p 10.23 inches

Stock Coil

2p 8.66 inches
1p 7.48 inches

Sorry could you explain what is the 'ground balancing' procedure for an ACE 250? Is that simply adjust sensitivity etc?

Thanks.
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Saffron » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:51 am

detectorman5050 wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:37 am


Sorry could you explain what is the 'ground balancing' procedure for an ACE 250? Is that simply adjust sensitivity etc?
I will answer the easy one first.
No he can not, nor can anybody else. Because you can not ground balance the Ace 250 as it has a fixed ground balance.

All ground conditions are different. To get the best out of a metal detector you have to "ground balance" it after turning it on by pumping it up and down above the ground so that it can read the ground conditions. This needs additional complexities in the machine, hence you will only find it on the mid to high end machines. However, to save cost you do not have this in the lower price range machines and they have a fixed ground balance that is a good average for most conditions - this is what you have with the 250.

detectorman5050 wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:37 am

Hi Sweepstick

Yes, fair point, there will be lots of interference in the house. However, I was thinking that since both coils will be subject to the same level of interference, does that mean that there is some validity to my test?

You mention testing on a hammered coin, I'm afraid I've not come across one of those yet. I detect mainly on beaches, and of course modern coins are often in abundance.

Even with all that interference flying about I tested some more modern coins:
Tornado
2p 10.62 inches
1p 10.23 inches

Stock Coil
2p 8.66 inches
1p 7.48 inches

Thanks.
Love your comment about the hammered coin and not having found one yet ... fear not the Ace 250 is well capable of finding them if you walk over them.

An air test, especially in a house, gives a very rough idea but certainly is not scientific and should not be taken as giving more than a very general idea. Burying the coins in the garden (allowing its not full of nails and other rubbish like a lot of gardens are) will give a more valid idea, as the there is less interference outside and the signal going into the soil will give a more realistic idea than it just going through the air.

There are other factors to take into account that limit the validity of the type of tests you are doing, the most significant is that the Tornado is larger and gives more ground coverage as a result it can be more susceptible to the ground conditions and the amount of chatter that they produce, so with the Tornado you might have to run lower sensitivity than with the standard coil so in "real" conditions for a 2p you might initially gain an inch at the same sensitivity but be forced to reduce the sensitivity which would cost the same 1" so finish up with no improvement.

You said you detect mainly beaches, with my Ace 250 using the standard coil it was OK on the wet sand in the S.W. (only limited falsing), yet the Tornado on the same beach was unusable on the wet sand as it continually falsed so I was forced to stick to the dry sand at the top of the beach with it.

The Tornado is also not so good on very small targets, nor on seperation between targets so you are more likely to get a big bit of iron hide a good target.

I normally detect on fairly clean pasture with very limited finds, so the Tornado was excellent for the extra ground coverage it provided and I suspect (not scentifically tested) that for an old 1d it gave 1" or 2" extra depth - you are NOT suddenly going to get an extra 4-6 inches.
However, in some circumstances, eg trashy ground or wet sand, the standard coil was a much superior choice.
So swap between the 2 as you see fit.

Also be aware that although the Tornado is not a great deal heavier than the standard Ace 250 coil, it does significantly spoil the balance of the machine so its not so easy to swing for long perionds.

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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Bargeman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:52 pm

Saffron wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:51 am

so the Tornado was excellent for the extra ground coverage it provided and I suspect (not scentifically tested) that for an old 1d it gave 1" or 2" extra depth - you are NOT suddenly going to get an extra 4-6 inches.
However, in some circumstances, eg trashy ground or wet sand, the standard coil was a much superior choice.
So swap between the 2 as you see fit.
Evan
This is very good advice, the extra coverage, plus a small increase in depth is worth the money alone on the right field. ::g
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by littleboot » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:08 pm

I was pondering a larger Nel coil and dispensed with the idea. Most worthwhile fields in my neck of the woods march hand in hand with a high trash content re iron etc...because of previous occupation. OK it may buy me a couple more inches on open fields with no previous but ...and its a big but...the extra effort swinging would also cut my time in the field and frankly I'd rather search areas I know had habitation and are thus unsuitable for the big coil.
So I have purchased a smaller coil for weedling out signals from very trashy areas. Most of my land is arable so depth really isn't a big issue....I just wait till the land is turned over next time and things come within range.
If yo have a lot of old, previously unoccupied pasture I can see some benefit in a larger coil....but just hope any goodies are not masked by something big nearby.
the extra coverage, plus a small increase in depth is worth the money alone on the right field.
Just out of interest BM, how long did you use the stock coil before going with the Nel in order to come to this conclusion?
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Mud Max » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:06 pm

Wise words Littleboot, which small coil did you get for your Ace and how are you finding please?
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Saffron » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:24 pm

littleboot wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:08 pm
I was pondering a larger Nel coil and dispensed with the idea. Most worthwhile fields in my neck of the woods march hand in hand with a high trash content re iron etc...because of previous occupation. OK it may buy me a couple more inches on open fields with no previous but ...and its a big but...the extra effort swinging would also cut my time in the field and frankly I'd rather search areas I know had habitation and are thus unsuitable for the big coil.
So I have purchased a smaller coil for weedling out signals from very trashy areas. Most of my land is arable so depth really isn't a big issue....I just wait till the land is turned over next time and things come within range.
If you have a lot of old, previously unoccupied pasture I can see some benefit in a larger coil....but just hope any goodies are not masked by something big nearby.
the extra coverage, plus a small increase in depth is worth the money alone on the right field.
Just out of interest BM, how long did you use the stock coil before going with the Nel in order to come to this conclusion?

As always wise words from Littleboot.
In my case with the 250 nearly all my detecting was on old previously unoccupied pasture which was fairly trash free - hence the extra ground coverage was the deciding factor in going for the Nel Tornado more so than the possible depth advantage.

The "the extra effort swinging" is also a valid point as most of the sessions on my own permissions are only a couple of hours or so while taking Horrid Hound. Even then I noticed the difference. I know one detectorist that always uses a 250 with the Tornado coil but significantly uses a bungee.
Last Sunday I was on a club dig and one person needed to borrow a detector and lucily for him I had the 250 in the car, with the Tornado coil fitted, but I also had the standard coil in the boot and gave him both, after quickly swinging the tornado a couple of time he took it off and put the standard coil back on.

As I said before both coils have there place in a detectorists armoury to meet different situations.

Regarding Littleboots question to BM "how long did you use the stock coil before going with the Nel" in my view people need to use a detector with the standard coil (which is the best possible compromise between depth and speration / small target detection) for a significant period before considering any other coils.

I certainly do not regret getting the Tornado coil for the Ace 250, (and still use it sometimes over the Racer 2 where extra ground coverage is the main priority).
But what people with any lower specification machines (and I think the 250 is a good machine and fantastic value for money) who have realised that they like metal detecting and are considering extra coils or upgrading could think about is this - My machine cost £200 is it worth spending £100 on an extra coil (very ball park numbers), which could improve finds ... but in a years time I might well want to upgrade the machine. Or am I better off putting the £100 towards a new machine now?.

Interesting that Littleboot went for a smaller coil on her machine rather than larger, I am currently leaning towards a snipper coil for the Racer 2 although when I started looking at additional coils I was interested in a larger one .... but its my birthday next month so maybe I will treat myself and see if I can get extra discount for both :D

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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Bargeman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:47 pm

Saffron wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:24 pm

Regarding Littleboots question to BM "how long did you use the stock coil before going with the Nel" in my view people need to use a detector with the standard coil (which is the best possible compromise between depth and speration / small target detection) for a significant period before considering any other coils.

Evan
Not necessarily true, as some detectors like the XP range can come with two different size coils as standard, 9" or 11", and I have mentioned before on here, if I had bought the GMP with the 11" coil as standard, I would not have bought the Tornado. but I didn't, so I did. As it happens I have been using the 9" coil recently on some stubble, but now the stubble has been raked, and rolled, the Tornado is back out.
All these things come down to personal choice and preference, and what I decide to use may not be right for other members here, but that is the point, it is a personal decision.
Whatever coil the OP decides to use, I hope it brings good results.

Be Lucky ::g

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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Mud Max » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:41 pm

"Not necessarily true, as some detectors like the XP range can come with two different size coils as standard, 9" or 11","

It is a great feature with the XPs, not sure how many others do it? Most machines seem to come with one standard coil in the box and you have to buy that, with the exception of the "pro packs" where you sometimes pay extra for 2. But again, you only have the "off the shelf" option.

Apart from XP, how many other distributers do we know who give you choices on which coil you desire as your stock choice when you buy the machine?
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by detectorman5050 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:43 pm

Saffron wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:51 am
I normally detect on fairly clean pasture with very limited finds, so the Tornado was excellent for the extra ground coverage it provided and I suspect (not scentifically tested) that for an old 1d it gave 1" or 2" extra depth - you are NOT suddenly going to get an extra 4-6 inches.
Thanks for the advice on what to expect from the NEL coil. Interestingly I found a depth test video from the manufacturers. No, it wasn't for my machine or stock coil, however it did claim a depth increase of 32% in their test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeyR_sttgPY

Most of my un-scientific tests have given a depth increase of about 22% to 37% depending on the target object (versus the standard ACE 250 coil.)

One more thing I'll add, I personally don't find the NEL coil that heavy. I was expecting it to be heavy after reading all the various reviews.

I got a sore arm initially after using the stock coil repeatedly on the ACE 250, but that disappeared, and I've no problem with the NEL now either. I suppose that is because I've grown special 'metal detector muscles.' ::g
Last edited by detectorman5050 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Mud Max » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:54 pm

The gain does vary depending on the machine and the stock coil in question.
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Re: Is the Extra Depth I Should Expect from a Nel Tornado?

Post by Batman » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:40 pm

I have the tornado 7.5khz coil on my x terra 705 and it is brilliant on very small targets, such as lace eyelets from shoes some are perhaps only about 5mm diameter or so but still give a good signal at good depth. Once pinpointed with machine I can struggle to find them with my Garrett pinpointer. Imho opinion I would say that you could expect about a third more depth than the stock coils. Let's put it this way I would not swap mine.

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